Interviews with Elder White Wolf ~ latest 4/10/17
Trauma and Training
This is the fifth interview with White Wolf Von Atzingen in reference to both Small Circles of 5 Animals Jujitsu and Survival Combat, specifically pertaining to trauma and ptsd in training.
***
Ben: Once again White Wolf thank you for agreeing to do this interview. I know we spoke about doing this interview over the winter and now its spring. My plan is to keep this one shorter, less questions and a more focused topic. How does that sound?
White Wolf: That sounds fine Ben. I know you are really busy and I have things that need attention so keeping this one shorter works for me.
Ben: Great! Let’s jump right in.
I know in the Element Mountain Wolf’s Den you’ve spoke a lot about trauma. You also wrote a short e-book entitled PTSD, living with the beast, a personal story, that details some of your personal experience with trauma. In my opinion both the articles and the e-book contain excellent information.
Am I correct in the understanding that still today you work in the healing realm to resolve trauma in your life?
White Wolf: Yes today I continue to work with health care practitioners and trauma specialists in the accessing of trauma that is locked in my body in order to successfully release it. After years of tests and medical delving, it was finally discovered last year that the origins of physical symptoms reside in organ damage. When my system was poisoned in 2005 many of the organs were damaged. However, by that time I had experienced a large level of trauma’s throughout my life, from general to specific to intensely acute events. As my body tried to heal from the poison it could only get so far because of the level of trauma actually locked into the body. This locked energy kept the organs suppressed and prevented them from fully healing.
Ben: Where or how does trauma get “locked” in the body?
White Wolf: As trauma experts state, like Bessel Van Der Kolk, Peter Levine and Stephen Porges, energy that is released into the body during high levels of stress, like accidents, abuse, global disasters and such can get trapped in the body. Their research (divulged in all their many books) clearly shows that traumatic experience is a flow through the body. If the body is allowed to move through and complete the natural flow of traumatic energy, the body has a far less chance of developing “chronic trauma” than a body that was disturbed and not allowed to complete the energy flow. Basically the energy needs to move completely through and vent out of the nervous system. If it cannot then the intense energy is locked into the nervous system to continue running until the nervous system can be manually released. Levine states the nervous system cannot release itself and so any energy locked in from a traumatic event will remain until specific healing protocols are used to release it.
Ben: Wow, OK. What you’re saying is that your nervous system has lots of trauma energy locked in and this affects the wellbeing of the whole body?
White Wolf: Yes. Years of living a highly traumatic life built up large amounts of layered energy from that lifestyle in the nervous system. This is what trauma actually is, the trapped energy inside the body unable to get out through the completion of the energy flow. Over time this builds and creates a wide variety of symptoms that undermine the wellbeing of the body. The poison just added a monkey-wrench to the system, so now one cannot be worked without addressing the other equally, especially since the poison itself was another traumatic event.
Ben: To be clear, the poison added to the trauma already locked in the body, but also weakened the organs more which allowed the high levels of chronic trauma to suppress healing?
White Wolf: Yes, in a nutshell.
Ben: How long have you been working this level of your healing?
White Wolf: Not too long. I really only found all this out in a way that made sense near the end of last year. I guess the main work we have all started in this level of healing only began in January of this year. It must be taken very slowly to support and build as we access and release the organs and nervous system. It all needs to be done in slow layers from the exterior to the core of the interior and then back out again. I am told this could take some years to complete.
Ben: That’s got to take some incredible patience! Which brings me to the aspect of training and how the trauma affects it, as well as the healing? Clearly you teach hardcore things like Survival Combat so you need to be in good shape and condition, right? I myself have seen and I know other students have commented how it’s obvious you’re in pain but are still able to teach very successfully the skills.
White Wolf: Oh yes my patience evolution has certainly been tested and forced to grow! I suppose that is a beneficial thing. Pacing myself tends to be one of the most difficult areas, but even so I have made some great progress with it.
It is true that my doctors and alternative health care practitioners have commented how perplexed they are as to how I stay in shape when my energy is so low and many days I am unable to do much do to pain and fatigue. The answer exists in my internal training practices. If I were only skilled in external training styles and practices there is no way I would be in the shape I am with the physical complications I deal with. There are many days, especially in the cold season, where I cannot do external conditioning of any kind. Nevertheless, I am able to continue my internal training, which includes things like breath work, energy movement, internal expansion and contraction, organ stimulation, mental lymphatic flushing, emotional channeling, 4 element tapping, color and sound alignment, tendon filling, and others. These practices allow me to keep my body honed enough so I am not only able to execute the skills necessary for teaching, but also boost my healing. They keep me from structurally degrading while continuing to build myself from the inside out.
Ben: Truly inspiring! That must be how you can walk up with a grimace of pain on your face limping and tired and take out three knife wielding opponents with seeming ease! And don't be modest because I've seen you do it, and more! Of course those skills are advanced and took you many years to learn, right?
I wonder if you might give the general origins of those internal practices. I know you’ve studied a wide variety of fighting styles and as you detailed in your last interview, you’ve been doing a lot with genetics in training as well.
White Wolf: Yes and no. The level that I practice them at today is advanced and took all my years to develop, yes. However, when you begin those practices you cannot start at advanced levels. Like anything there is a progression of skill built upon through hard work, dedication and time. The fact is that I doubt I would have survived being poisoned if I did not have these skills to work with, especially during that first year.
In general these are the basic origins of the internal examples I mentioned: I use a variety from Japanese, Chinese, Native American Scout, old Teutonic and Norse systems of fighting and healing.
Ben: I would suppose after the long Vermont winter you can rebound rather quickly in spring because you employ those internal training exercises?
White Wolf: Most of the time yes, but it depends upon how rough the cold season was on my body each year. This year was pretty darn rough so it will take me a bit more time than other seasons. Of course it was rough because we are finally working on core issues rather than continually finding and chasing symptoms. The deeper you go in healing, the more difficult it becomes until it is resolved.
Ben: What a good reminder that is! Perhaps you could explain a little how things like complex post traumatic stress (cptsd & ptsd) affect training? I know you were diagnosed years ago with cptsd so how has that worked with training and teaching of skill sets that must bring back traumatic memories for you?
White Wolf: Good question. It was quite a few years ago now I had made a decision to leave the combat teaching behind because at that time it was still too fresh and triggered too many memories. It seemed that to continue would simply undermine my attempts at healing and even place whatever I chose to try building in danger. Only after embracing the fact that I had issues with trauma and needed assistance did things begin to shift.
At first it was a hit to the ego aspect of self to acknowledge that I was challenged with something like cptsd. I saw it in a way as a form of weakness. However, after taking those first steps years ago in accepting the facts, and then embracing what needed to be done to turn things around did I become aware of the facts of trauma as a naturally occurring issue of life and a global epidemic, not personal weakness. Dropping the ego and investing a great deal of time and energy into the study of trauma and healing from trauma brought me to new levels of personal as well as global awareness.
After working with professionals for a while, as well as working on myself daily, I got to a point where I realized embracing the combat skills again and opening them into teaching again actually helped to further my healing and self evolution. Before, the trauma was creating a division inside me keeping those skill sets and the rest of me fighting one another. Once I was able to break down that division and once again unify combative skills and experiences with the rest of me, I transformed into a higher level of not only self awareness, but also higher levels of the multifaceted reality of those skill sets. The trauma made those skill sets and my experiences surrounding them appear flat, two-dimensional. Trauma tends to do that with all areas of one’s life. In that flat perspective we lose touch with those areas of our being and those aspects that help make us who we are. To deny them suffocates facets of who and what we are in life and hinders our every movement and expression.
Ben: Very interesting! You’re saying by approaching your trauma healing you were able to gain insights that showed you how important the areas of your life are steeped in combative skills?
White Wolf: Exactly. We have skill sets for a reason and only when we can openly accept there is a higher reason can we begin to evolve into states of greater awareness of the self and those skill sets and even the experiences we have had connected to them. If you can approach trauma healing in the most beneficial way for you as an individual, you will be able to surpass ego and the conditions implanted in the ego to embrace a fuller and richer aspect of who you are and all you do and have done.
Ben: That makes good sense. Because you were able to accept you had trauma issues you could find proper assistance and in time that allowed you to open back up to what was closed off?
White Wolf: Yes. Trauma over time closes doors inside a person. Eventually if more and more trauma builds up inside the nervous system more and more doors close down or dull out. These doors are simply our senses that keep us connected to the richness of this world and life. The more a person can heal from trauma by releasing it through understanding and physical techniques, the more those doors open back up and present new levels of awareness.
Ben: What physical techniques are you talking about to release trauma?
White Wolf: Well there are many professionally recognized techniques used around the world and techniques that are more unique to an individual’s needs. Some of the many professionally recognized techniques are things like Trauma Release Exercise (TRE), Trauma-Sensitive Yoga, Somatic Release, Trauma-Sensitive Massage Therapy, Sensorimotor Psychotherapy and many others.
Ben: Great! I’ve not heard of some of those so I’ll need to look them up.
Would you say by embracing your trauma healing that you’ve been able to open up to new levels of internal training and awareness that perhaps you wouldn’t have found in any other way?
White Wolf: Absolutely. Sometimes the best way to find the light is through the dark as they say. Personally from my own experiences it’s a powerful thing to discover the self through extreme adversity and I feel there are areas of self one may not be able to find without living through those extreme challenges. Through those discoveries we can also place the past in a more productive frame of understanding and acceptance because we then see it all had purpose far beyond what we originally felt.
Ben: Might you even say that your trauma was/is a sort of gift for self evolution?
White Wolf: Yes I do think so. I have not seen trauma as a weakness or ball and chain for a long time. Rather I see it, like you said, as a sort of gift, a catalyst that has helped propel me to regions of internal development and potent awareness’s that make me stronger by becoming emptier and more pliant; more open minded and less rigid in mentality and movement through life. At the same time I do not try to keep it or hold it. I work to heal it by acknowledging it all and releasing it from my body and brain because it does undermine my wellbeing, even though it is an incredible teaching tool for self improvement. But it is a tool. Once you are done with the tool you let it go and move on. However, there is a proper time to where life presents an opportunity to let it go. If you let go of the hammer before all the nails are hammered in, well you end up with an unfinished project. You need to be aware so as to let it go when it is no longer needed and not before. But trauma is not so easily or quickly let go like a hammer. It takes a progression of time, dedication and patience. Even so, life will present the most beneficial times to embrace such progressions and it’s up to us to pay attention and capitalize upon those times and energies or not.
Ben: Do you have a comment about so many of these martial art teachers and combat instructors that carry around egos the size of Mt Everest? Ever since I’ve known you I’ve noticed you don’t display that kind of ego. You carry some seriously solid skills with this sort of grace; a real genuine polite stance.
White Wolf: Funny, not long ago a dear friend of mine asked a similar question. In my experience anyone who acts cocky and macho hasn't seen the true fragility of their lives yet, and therefore hasn't had near the experience in REAL situations involving their own blood and breath. They lack wisdom; they lack reality and live in a brain world of ego disillusion. I think it’s impossible to uphold a machismo egocentrics attitude when you have experienced true suffering and seen your own life and the lives of others in the balance of life and death. I think the more suffering you witness in life the more you honor life and understand its true fragility.
Nobody is immortal in flesh. Nobody is invincible. Nobody is “the best”. Any one of our lives could end in a moment, just like that, unceremoniously and as common as the death of an insect. Egocentric attitudes are a cover for the fear of one’s own fragility. The go is much like inflammation around a wound. The body tries to protect itself by inflaming tissues around a wound so it can have a chance of healing.
Fearing one’s own mortality and the fragility of our lives is like a wound that steals energy from our living expressions. An inflamed ego is many times the result of that fear, which wound to try protecting that weakness from the world. But it only suppresses our true life-force and slowly suffocates us.
So when you see a huge ego walking down the street or on the gym you are looking at the inflamed face of fear, fear of a weakness being avoided within the person.
Ben: Incredibly put White Wolf! Wow, that gives me a new perspective to work with! It makes perfect sense and makes me see just how many fragile people are walking around, or I should say people avoiding their own issues.
Well that turned out to be longer than I anticipated. I think we should wrap it up there for now. Thank you once again for taking the time to sharing your wisdom with us all and continuing your unique power journey of self exploration and evolution that I know many gain from.
This is the fifth interview with White Wolf Von Atzingen in reference to both Small Circles of 5 Animals Jujitsu and Survival Combat, specifically pertaining to trauma and ptsd in training.
***
Ben: Once again White Wolf thank you for agreeing to do this interview. I know we spoke about doing this interview over the winter and now its spring. My plan is to keep this one shorter, less questions and a more focused topic. How does that sound?
White Wolf: That sounds fine Ben. I know you are really busy and I have things that need attention so keeping this one shorter works for me.
Ben: Great! Let’s jump right in.
I know in the Element Mountain Wolf’s Den you’ve spoke a lot about trauma. You also wrote a short e-book entitled PTSD, living with the beast, a personal story, that details some of your personal experience with trauma. In my opinion both the articles and the e-book contain excellent information.
Am I correct in the understanding that still today you work in the healing realm to resolve trauma in your life?
White Wolf: Yes today I continue to work with health care practitioners and trauma specialists in the accessing of trauma that is locked in my body in order to successfully release it. After years of tests and medical delving, it was finally discovered last year that the origins of physical symptoms reside in organ damage. When my system was poisoned in 2005 many of the organs were damaged. However, by that time I had experienced a large level of trauma’s throughout my life, from general to specific to intensely acute events. As my body tried to heal from the poison it could only get so far because of the level of trauma actually locked into the body. This locked energy kept the organs suppressed and prevented them from fully healing.
Ben: Where or how does trauma get “locked” in the body?
White Wolf: As trauma experts state, like Bessel Van Der Kolk, Peter Levine and Stephen Porges, energy that is released into the body during high levels of stress, like accidents, abuse, global disasters and such can get trapped in the body. Their research (divulged in all their many books) clearly shows that traumatic experience is a flow through the body. If the body is allowed to move through and complete the natural flow of traumatic energy, the body has a far less chance of developing “chronic trauma” than a body that was disturbed and not allowed to complete the energy flow. Basically the energy needs to move completely through and vent out of the nervous system. If it cannot then the intense energy is locked into the nervous system to continue running until the nervous system can be manually released. Levine states the nervous system cannot release itself and so any energy locked in from a traumatic event will remain until specific healing protocols are used to release it.
Ben: Wow, OK. What you’re saying is that your nervous system has lots of trauma energy locked in and this affects the wellbeing of the whole body?
White Wolf: Yes. Years of living a highly traumatic life built up large amounts of layered energy from that lifestyle in the nervous system. This is what trauma actually is, the trapped energy inside the body unable to get out through the completion of the energy flow. Over time this builds and creates a wide variety of symptoms that undermine the wellbeing of the body. The poison just added a monkey-wrench to the system, so now one cannot be worked without addressing the other equally, especially since the poison itself was another traumatic event.
Ben: To be clear, the poison added to the trauma already locked in the body, but also weakened the organs more which allowed the high levels of chronic trauma to suppress healing?
White Wolf: Yes, in a nutshell.
Ben: How long have you been working this level of your healing?
White Wolf: Not too long. I really only found all this out in a way that made sense near the end of last year. I guess the main work we have all started in this level of healing only began in January of this year. It must be taken very slowly to support and build as we access and release the organs and nervous system. It all needs to be done in slow layers from the exterior to the core of the interior and then back out again. I am told this could take some years to complete.
Ben: That’s got to take some incredible patience! Which brings me to the aspect of training and how the trauma affects it, as well as the healing? Clearly you teach hardcore things like Survival Combat so you need to be in good shape and condition, right? I myself have seen and I know other students have commented how it’s obvious you’re in pain but are still able to teach very successfully the skills.
White Wolf: Oh yes my patience evolution has certainly been tested and forced to grow! I suppose that is a beneficial thing. Pacing myself tends to be one of the most difficult areas, but even so I have made some great progress with it.
It is true that my doctors and alternative health care practitioners have commented how perplexed they are as to how I stay in shape when my energy is so low and many days I am unable to do much do to pain and fatigue. The answer exists in my internal training practices. If I were only skilled in external training styles and practices there is no way I would be in the shape I am with the physical complications I deal with. There are many days, especially in the cold season, where I cannot do external conditioning of any kind. Nevertheless, I am able to continue my internal training, which includes things like breath work, energy movement, internal expansion and contraction, organ stimulation, mental lymphatic flushing, emotional channeling, 4 element tapping, color and sound alignment, tendon filling, and others. These practices allow me to keep my body honed enough so I am not only able to execute the skills necessary for teaching, but also boost my healing. They keep me from structurally degrading while continuing to build myself from the inside out.
Ben: Truly inspiring! That must be how you can walk up with a grimace of pain on your face limping and tired and take out three knife wielding opponents with seeming ease! And don't be modest because I've seen you do it, and more! Of course those skills are advanced and took you many years to learn, right?
I wonder if you might give the general origins of those internal practices. I know you’ve studied a wide variety of fighting styles and as you detailed in your last interview, you’ve been doing a lot with genetics in training as well.
White Wolf: Yes and no. The level that I practice them at today is advanced and took all my years to develop, yes. However, when you begin those practices you cannot start at advanced levels. Like anything there is a progression of skill built upon through hard work, dedication and time. The fact is that I doubt I would have survived being poisoned if I did not have these skills to work with, especially during that first year.
In general these are the basic origins of the internal examples I mentioned: I use a variety from Japanese, Chinese, Native American Scout, old Teutonic and Norse systems of fighting and healing.
Ben: I would suppose after the long Vermont winter you can rebound rather quickly in spring because you employ those internal training exercises?
White Wolf: Most of the time yes, but it depends upon how rough the cold season was on my body each year. This year was pretty darn rough so it will take me a bit more time than other seasons. Of course it was rough because we are finally working on core issues rather than continually finding and chasing symptoms. The deeper you go in healing, the more difficult it becomes until it is resolved.
Ben: What a good reminder that is! Perhaps you could explain a little how things like complex post traumatic stress (cptsd & ptsd) affect training? I know you were diagnosed years ago with cptsd so how has that worked with training and teaching of skill sets that must bring back traumatic memories for you?
White Wolf: Good question. It was quite a few years ago now I had made a decision to leave the combat teaching behind because at that time it was still too fresh and triggered too many memories. It seemed that to continue would simply undermine my attempts at healing and even place whatever I chose to try building in danger. Only after embracing the fact that I had issues with trauma and needed assistance did things begin to shift.
At first it was a hit to the ego aspect of self to acknowledge that I was challenged with something like cptsd. I saw it in a way as a form of weakness. However, after taking those first steps years ago in accepting the facts, and then embracing what needed to be done to turn things around did I become aware of the facts of trauma as a naturally occurring issue of life and a global epidemic, not personal weakness. Dropping the ego and investing a great deal of time and energy into the study of trauma and healing from trauma brought me to new levels of personal as well as global awareness.
After working with professionals for a while, as well as working on myself daily, I got to a point where I realized embracing the combat skills again and opening them into teaching again actually helped to further my healing and self evolution. Before, the trauma was creating a division inside me keeping those skill sets and the rest of me fighting one another. Once I was able to break down that division and once again unify combative skills and experiences with the rest of me, I transformed into a higher level of not only self awareness, but also higher levels of the multifaceted reality of those skill sets. The trauma made those skill sets and my experiences surrounding them appear flat, two-dimensional. Trauma tends to do that with all areas of one’s life. In that flat perspective we lose touch with those areas of our being and those aspects that help make us who we are. To deny them suffocates facets of who and what we are in life and hinders our every movement and expression.
Ben: Very interesting! You’re saying by approaching your trauma healing you were able to gain insights that showed you how important the areas of your life are steeped in combative skills?
White Wolf: Exactly. We have skill sets for a reason and only when we can openly accept there is a higher reason can we begin to evolve into states of greater awareness of the self and those skill sets and even the experiences we have had connected to them. If you can approach trauma healing in the most beneficial way for you as an individual, you will be able to surpass ego and the conditions implanted in the ego to embrace a fuller and richer aspect of who you are and all you do and have done.
Ben: That makes good sense. Because you were able to accept you had trauma issues you could find proper assistance and in time that allowed you to open back up to what was closed off?
White Wolf: Yes. Trauma over time closes doors inside a person. Eventually if more and more trauma builds up inside the nervous system more and more doors close down or dull out. These doors are simply our senses that keep us connected to the richness of this world and life. The more a person can heal from trauma by releasing it through understanding and physical techniques, the more those doors open back up and present new levels of awareness.
Ben: What physical techniques are you talking about to release trauma?
White Wolf: Well there are many professionally recognized techniques used around the world and techniques that are more unique to an individual’s needs. Some of the many professionally recognized techniques are things like Trauma Release Exercise (TRE), Trauma-Sensitive Yoga, Somatic Release, Trauma-Sensitive Massage Therapy, Sensorimotor Psychotherapy and many others.
Ben: Great! I’ve not heard of some of those so I’ll need to look them up.
Would you say by embracing your trauma healing that you’ve been able to open up to new levels of internal training and awareness that perhaps you wouldn’t have found in any other way?
White Wolf: Absolutely. Sometimes the best way to find the light is through the dark as they say. Personally from my own experiences it’s a powerful thing to discover the self through extreme adversity and I feel there are areas of self one may not be able to find without living through those extreme challenges. Through those discoveries we can also place the past in a more productive frame of understanding and acceptance because we then see it all had purpose far beyond what we originally felt.
Ben: Might you even say that your trauma was/is a sort of gift for self evolution?
White Wolf: Yes I do think so. I have not seen trauma as a weakness or ball and chain for a long time. Rather I see it, like you said, as a sort of gift, a catalyst that has helped propel me to regions of internal development and potent awareness’s that make me stronger by becoming emptier and more pliant; more open minded and less rigid in mentality and movement through life. At the same time I do not try to keep it or hold it. I work to heal it by acknowledging it all and releasing it from my body and brain because it does undermine my wellbeing, even though it is an incredible teaching tool for self improvement. But it is a tool. Once you are done with the tool you let it go and move on. However, there is a proper time to where life presents an opportunity to let it go. If you let go of the hammer before all the nails are hammered in, well you end up with an unfinished project. You need to be aware so as to let it go when it is no longer needed and not before. But trauma is not so easily or quickly let go like a hammer. It takes a progression of time, dedication and patience. Even so, life will present the most beneficial times to embrace such progressions and it’s up to us to pay attention and capitalize upon those times and energies or not.
Ben: Do you have a comment about so many of these martial art teachers and combat instructors that carry around egos the size of Mt Everest? Ever since I’ve known you I’ve noticed you don’t display that kind of ego. You carry some seriously solid skills with this sort of grace; a real genuine polite stance.
White Wolf: Funny, not long ago a dear friend of mine asked a similar question. In my experience anyone who acts cocky and macho hasn't seen the true fragility of their lives yet, and therefore hasn't had near the experience in REAL situations involving their own blood and breath. They lack wisdom; they lack reality and live in a brain world of ego disillusion. I think it’s impossible to uphold a machismo egocentrics attitude when you have experienced true suffering and seen your own life and the lives of others in the balance of life and death. I think the more suffering you witness in life the more you honor life and understand its true fragility.
Nobody is immortal in flesh. Nobody is invincible. Nobody is “the best”. Any one of our lives could end in a moment, just like that, unceremoniously and as common as the death of an insect. Egocentric attitudes are a cover for the fear of one’s own fragility. The go is much like inflammation around a wound. The body tries to protect itself by inflaming tissues around a wound so it can have a chance of healing.
Fearing one’s own mortality and the fragility of our lives is like a wound that steals energy from our living expressions. An inflamed ego is many times the result of that fear, which wound to try protecting that weakness from the world. But it only suppresses our true life-force and slowly suffocates us.
So when you see a huge ego walking down the street or on the gym you are looking at the inflamed face of fear, fear of a weakness being avoided within the person.
Ben: Incredibly put White Wolf! Wow, that gives me a new perspective to work with! It makes perfect sense and makes me see just how many fragile people are walking around, or I should say people avoiding their own issues.
Well that turned out to be longer than I anticipated. I think we should wrap it up there for now. Thank you once again for taking the time to sharing your wisdom with us all and continuing your unique power journey of self exploration and evolution that I know many gain from.
Interview 2/20/17 with White Wolf Von Atzingen
Genetics and Training
This is the fourth interview with White Wolf Von Atzingen in reference to both Small Circles of 5 Animals Jujitsu and Survival Combat, specifically pertaining to genetics in training and cptsd, two separate topics.
***
Ben: White Wolf thanks for coming back and agreeing to do this interview. I realize we just did one and had it posted, but while I have the time (a rare thing) I may as well be productive with it.
WW: Sure. I realize you are very busy and have little in the way of down time. So thanks for taking this time and for the continued interest.
Ben: Oh I doubt my interest will ever fade in what you have to teach and share. I find it all so captivating, so much that I’m always willing to invest this time to capture it in writing to be shared with the world.
Shall we jump right in here?
WW: Fire away Ben.
Ben: OK, at the end of our last interview I threw out the idea of interviewing you on genetics and how they might pertain to training. My specific question is this, do you feel genetics play a role in what kind of martial/fight training one might excel at? It seems many countries have their own style of fighting throughout history. Do you feel the specific genetics of people helped develop those methods of fighting, and would it be more difficult for those genetics to excel at another style?
WW: Good question. Yes various styles of martial arts and fighting developed on many continents and in many countries and though many share similar principles, the form can vary greatly. This can certainly birth the question if genetics played a role in their development. It also gives rise to the pondering of whether a person’s genetics align them for one style more so then another. It’s not much different than healing modalities and genetics in my opinion. I feel genetics definitely play a role.
In my view genetic coding resonates at unique frequencies. Though each person is unique onto their own, the stronger the genetic line is within them the more they will energetically align with that baseline genetic code of their bloodline. Since original genetic lines possess unique frequency brackets it becomes plausible that those genetics resonate with certain ways of doing things/interacting with the world that would be different than another genetic line. Like strings on a cello; you have A,D,G and C. Each string can represent a genetic line. Each string resonates at a very unique frequency. Some work better than others in variations of music, but you can find a place for all in music composition.
Ben: Instrument strings, nice analogy. OK I follow. Each string is a part of the cello but each have their unique place and purposes, just like cultures or genetic blood lines.
WW: Exactly. My feeling is that if the 5 original races philosophy is correct then there are 5 original genetic lines; red – North American, white – European and Scandinavian , black – African, Australian and Island, brown – South American and Island and yellow - Asian. Each line over time divided and joined with others to create sub-lines and the genetic web of diversity grew. At first the races remained close with each other and so only mixed within like tribes or genetic pools. Skills, beliefs, lifestyles and everything else all birthed from that genetic lines energy signature in this world. It would make sense then that defensive systems grew from that same unique energy signature; fighting styles.
As time progressed the genetic lines traveled further and further from their origins on the earth and began to encounter and eventually mix with other genetic lines. Some genetic lines embraced this far faster and on wider scale than others. Now this is all just ideas of course. History is far more complicated than all that, but this is just to make a foundation point to my answer to your questions.
Ben: I understand and it makes sense. I know I threw a rather huge set of difficult questions your way! By all means, continue from that foundation because to me it makes enough sense to follow your point.
WW: Ok, good. Even if the 5 original race theory is incorrect I think the main point remains, different genetic pools equals different energy signatures and gave birth to different ways of living. If we look at South American fighting styles among native tribes they differ greatly from say Japanese styles. African tribal combative styles are very different than old Scandinavian methods. Of course show business tends to try bending history to suit viewer attention rather than depicting facts. For instance the History channel’s series called Vikings. The main female character named Lagatha is a shield maiden but is shown to fight using martial art karate and grappling type techniques. Sorry but Vikings had no such fighting styles.
Ben: Ha, good point. Yes I’ve watched that show and wondered why Lagatha was tossing people around using what appeared to me modern jujitsu techniques. It’s funny that show is on the History Channel since very little is historically accurate!
WW: They show whatever sells. Styles not only developed through genetic energy but also with the environment in mind. Many of the South American styles involve flipping, bouncing, jumping and flying around as they use the jungle type growth for their support structure as well as their smaller physical frames. The high dynamics give them more momentum and thus more power.
Viking styles of combat were much more direct and brutal in drive and strength. Their landscape was much more open and exposed than found in the jungles. Vikings tended to also be much larger and physically more powerful than South American genetics. Therefore they had no need of the acrobatic dynamics, but instead employed their size and strength to the advantage.
Those are two simple examples of two very different genetic lines and environmental variations showing very different fighting systems. Can a South American genetic person learn to fight like a Norwegian Viking and vise versa? They can, certainly, but I feel in general there are limits to what their bodies can execute because of their genetics. Many big boned shorter tendon Viking genetic people would find it a huge challenge to develop and execute the level of skill an Angolan might possess at a South American style like Capoeira. Likewise a smaller frame Angolan would find it difficult to develop the sheer brute crushing power that a large framed Northman.
When you see a strong Asian genetic individual employing say a Shao Lin Kng Fu form for instance, they tend to look far more natural at it than perhaps someone with Samoan genetics trying the same form.
I studied Kung Fu for some years and met some pretty incredible Caucasian practitioners, but when watching them side-by-side with Chinese practitioners in China, there was no comparison. I am not saying the Caucasian practitioners were no good, just that the Chinese genetics made the style look so effortless, like their bodies and very essence were build for it, even resonated from the very origins of the style.
Some people may have issues with these statements, but they may be missing the point. These are simple observations and ponderings, general statements rather than absolute facts because when it comes down to it, who is really to say for certain?
Even so there has been lots of study done on genetics and specific abilities generated out of specific genetics and genetic mixes. From more rash research done by the Germans in the 40’s to spiritual oriented research done by the Taoists and controversial research done by the American government in the 50’s and 60’s that evolved and continues through to this day in the realms of science, genetic research with the aim to discover specific abilities on physical, mental, emotional and spiritual layers is huge.
Also with that said, today it is not as easy with many people since genetic lines have mixed so much over the ages. Most people today are mutts. However, even with a large mixture of genetics science tells us that there are still those in each person that are more dominant than others. Interestingly the dominant genetics do not necessarily have to be the larger percentage in a body either. You might have 50% Mongolian, 20% Spanish, 20% Chinese, and only 10% Israeli, but that 10% could be the dominant genetic line “awake” in you and more accessible and usable than the others.
Ben: Simple opinion or not, I think you’re onto something and your examples do make sense. Obviously they’re general and focused more on extremes, but it makes sense to draw those extremes to explain a point. How does this fit in your opinion with your genetic makeup and fighting styles?
WW: Most of my genetics are both “southern Saxon” and “northern Saxon” in origin. Keep in mind Saxon is used loosely since that time period and region contained many various “tribes” all sort of given the general name “Saxon” later on. Nevertheless the bloodline has been traced to old Germanic, Helvetian and Western Norse. The Irish blood I have is traced back to Germanic roots and even the so called Dutch bloodline on my mother side is actually from the Germanic lines in Ireland, not the Dutch. Most of the martial arts I have studied are either Chinese or Japanese in origin. No matter how many years I studied and no matter how good I became my skills and how I could make the styles look were still less than many Asian practitioners who studied their whole lives. What gave me the edge is when I started studying my roots and the fighting styles of those bloodlines. Then I began exploring those methods myself and inserting those energies into my fighting styles. It made all the difference!
It was as if I was able to open a natural door in my genetics that allowed me to meld with what was already part of the genetic energy. I learned to focus and direct that energy into my fighting abilities and long years of experience. This is why when you see me in person execute techniques; they do not look like the classic techniques and flow of the Asian systems.
As we learn and grow and explore deeper levels of self we can learn to open and tap into genetic energies that connect us to the essence of our ancestors. Once we can learn to do this we can then direct these energies into the skills we already learned in this life, no matter what genetic line they might have come out of. It’s called adaptation. Most of us have mixed genetics today. Many people have no idea what genetic lines they are made of. However, if you do know and you can tap into the most prominent ones, you have a chance to opening internal energy codes, genetic codes that can enhance all that you have become.
Ben: That’s incredible info! It just opens so many doorways of hidden potential. I’ve never thought about it before. The idea of tapping into genetic codes to unlock a primal power of the ancient bloodlines to use today is phenomenal. So you’re saying you’ve been able to tap into your Germanic and Norse dna to enhance the fighting styles you learned of Asian systems?
WW: Yes. It is not just about enhancement but actually changing what you have been taught to better suit your body and energy, your genetic essence that flows outward and interacts with the world. There is nothing mystical about it either. It’s pure genetic science. Obviously behind all that is physical is the non-physical eternal, so if you get into that realm I suppose you could state some of it is mystical as well.
Ben: Wild stuff! Your name, both first and last is also Germanic in origin, correct?
WW: Yes my name is Germanic, even the first name, not Native American like some people think when they see it.
Ben: I could see how some folk would think the first name was Native with all the Native American influence in your life.
WW: Yes perhaps. The first name connects to the bloodline prior to Roman influence into Germania and Scandinavia, before the invasions of Charlemagne when the northern and southern people were very similar, even in belief systems, before the main bloodlines of the region really fractioned out. The last name, though Swiss-German, is not actually old Germanic. The name is made of two separate pieces that were contrived to hide the old Saxon and Helvetian bloodline from the Catholic Church and their iron handed persecution after the Crusades. Atzi is actually found in the Hebrew language meaning “my tree” or “tree of life”. Gen is a Germanic pluralization = Atzigen = our tree of life. Von means of or from and ironically was given to the Atzigen family by the church as an honor. What better way to hide the old bloodline from the church and later inquisition period than to use part of a word or phrase from another language and pluralize it with German grammar?
Ben: Interesting White Wolf. So your full name sort of takes a long span of your history genetic line into account; from ancient Norse, Helvetian and Saxon through to post Crusades. I’m guessing you figured all this out through your family history digging?
WW: Yes most of it. Some I knew as a child since bits and pieces were explained to me then. I think it is a very important aspect of our personal lives and potential to research as best as we can our lineage and come to understand our genetic line. Over time we can use that information to go within and broaden self awareness and tap into that genetic energy and use it to fuel us in the present. My family dug into names, dates and locations which were all important for the further research I have been doing. But I am pretty sure I am the only one in my blood family who has been doing this aspect of the research and connecting the genetic dots in order to access and open the genetic energy pools within self. One reason I do it is because I feel I must, it is me and to better know and utilize me I need to continually explore. The other reason is to keep these roots alive.
Ben: Is there a way you tap into your genetics that could briefly be explained here?
WW: Unfortunately not. It is another one of those skills best explained in person so details do not get lost between the lines or misinterpreted by the reader. If it were something easily worded I would be happy to explain here, but the process is not. It’s a meditative process that requires both a stationary insight as well as within movement. The brain and body require stimulation in slightly different ways in order to start accessing the genetic coding. One does better in stillness while the other requires various types of movement.
Ben: Understood. I just thought I’d ask in case on the slim chance it were simple to describe.
Ben: This is all such great information and personally gives me a drive to further explore my own heritage. I had planned on going into the next topic but I think you’ve given plenty to call this interview a wrap.
Let’s save the topic of cptsd in reference to your training for the next interview. What do you say?
WW: Sounds fine to me. For anyone who wants to read further on genetic coding and lineage tapping examples please track on over to the Element Mountain Wolf's Den to the article titled Genetic Alignment Importance.
Ben: Perfect. Thanks again White Wolf for your time and insights and hopefully there are readers who gain something from it. Until next time!
Genetics and Training
This is the fourth interview with White Wolf Von Atzingen in reference to both Small Circles of 5 Animals Jujitsu and Survival Combat, specifically pertaining to genetics in training and cptsd, two separate topics.
***
Ben: White Wolf thanks for coming back and agreeing to do this interview. I realize we just did one and had it posted, but while I have the time (a rare thing) I may as well be productive with it.
WW: Sure. I realize you are very busy and have little in the way of down time. So thanks for taking this time and for the continued interest.
Ben: Oh I doubt my interest will ever fade in what you have to teach and share. I find it all so captivating, so much that I’m always willing to invest this time to capture it in writing to be shared with the world.
Shall we jump right in here?
WW: Fire away Ben.
Ben: OK, at the end of our last interview I threw out the idea of interviewing you on genetics and how they might pertain to training. My specific question is this, do you feel genetics play a role in what kind of martial/fight training one might excel at? It seems many countries have their own style of fighting throughout history. Do you feel the specific genetics of people helped develop those methods of fighting, and would it be more difficult for those genetics to excel at another style?
WW: Good question. Yes various styles of martial arts and fighting developed on many continents and in many countries and though many share similar principles, the form can vary greatly. This can certainly birth the question if genetics played a role in their development. It also gives rise to the pondering of whether a person’s genetics align them for one style more so then another. It’s not much different than healing modalities and genetics in my opinion. I feel genetics definitely play a role.
In my view genetic coding resonates at unique frequencies. Though each person is unique onto their own, the stronger the genetic line is within them the more they will energetically align with that baseline genetic code of their bloodline. Since original genetic lines possess unique frequency brackets it becomes plausible that those genetics resonate with certain ways of doing things/interacting with the world that would be different than another genetic line. Like strings on a cello; you have A,D,G and C. Each string can represent a genetic line. Each string resonates at a very unique frequency. Some work better than others in variations of music, but you can find a place for all in music composition.
Ben: Instrument strings, nice analogy. OK I follow. Each string is a part of the cello but each have their unique place and purposes, just like cultures or genetic blood lines.
WW: Exactly. My feeling is that if the 5 original races philosophy is correct then there are 5 original genetic lines; red – North American, white – European and Scandinavian , black – African, Australian and Island, brown – South American and Island and yellow - Asian. Each line over time divided and joined with others to create sub-lines and the genetic web of diversity grew. At first the races remained close with each other and so only mixed within like tribes or genetic pools. Skills, beliefs, lifestyles and everything else all birthed from that genetic lines energy signature in this world. It would make sense then that defensive systems grew from that same unique energy signature; fighting styles.
As time progressed the genetic lines traveled further and further from their origins on the earth and began to encounter and eventually mix with other genetic lines. Some genetic lines embraced this far faster and on wider scale than others. Now this is all just ideas of course. History is far more complicated than all that, but this is just to make a foundation point to my answer to your questions.
Ben: I understand and it makes sense. I know I threw a rather huge set of difficult questions your way! By all means, continue from that foundation because to me it makes enough sense to follow your point.
WW: Ok, good. Even if the 5 original race theory is incorrect I think the main point remains, different genetic pools equals different energy signatures and gave birth to different ways of living. If we look at South American fighting styles among native tribes they differ greatly from say Japanese styles. African tribal combative styles are very different than old Scandinavian methods. Of course show business tends to try bending history to suit viewer attention rather than depicting facts. For instance the History channel’s series called Vikings. The main female character named Lagatha is a shield maiden but is shown to fight using martial art karate and grappling type techniques. Sorry but Vikings had no such fighting styles.
Ben: Ha, good point. Yes I’ve watched that show and wondered why Lagatha was tossing people around using what appeared to me modern jujitsu techniques. It’s funny that show is on the History Channel since very little is historically accurate!
WW: They show whatever sells. Styles not only developed through genetic energy but also with the environment in mind. Many of the South American styles involve flipping, bouncing, jumping and flying around as they use the jungle type growth for their support structure as well as their smaller physical frames. The high dynamics give them more momentum and thus more power.
Viking styles of combat were much more direct and brutal in drive and strength. Their landscape was much more open and exposed than found in the jungles. Vikings tended to also be much larger and physically more powerful than South American genetics. Therefore they had no need of the acrobatic dynamics, but instead employed their size and strength to the advantage.
Those are two simple examples of two very different genetic lines and environmental variations showing very different fighting systems. Can a South American genetic person learn to fight like a Norwegian Viking and vise versa? They can, certainly, but I feel in general there are limits to what their bodies can execute because of their genetics. Many big boned shorter tendon Viking genetic people would find it a huge challenge to develop and execute the level of skill an Angolan might possess at a South American style like Capoeira. Likewise a smaller frame Angolan would find it difficult to develop the sheer brute crushing power that a large framed Northman.
When you see a strong Asian genetic individual employing say a Shao Lin Kng Fu form for instance, they tend to look far more natural at it than perhaps someone with Samoan genetics trying the same form.
I studied Kung Fu for some years and met some pretty incredible Caucasian practitioners, but when watching them side-by-side with Chinese practitioners in China, there was no comparison. I am not saying the Caucasian practitioners were no good, just that the Chinese genetics made the style look so effortless, like their bodies and very essence were build for it, even resonated from the very origins of the style.
Some people may have issues with these statements, but they may be missing the point. These are simple observations and ponderings, general statements rather than absolute facts because when it comes down to it, who is really to say for certain?
Even so there has been lots of study done on genetics and specific abilities generated out of specific genetics and genetic mixes. From more rash research done by the Germans in the 40’s to spiritual oriented research done by the Taoists and controversial research done by the American government in the 50’s and 60’s that evolved and continues through to this day in the realms of science, genetic research with the aim to discover specific abilities on physical, mental, emotional and spiritual layers is huge.
Also with that said, today it is not as easy with many people since genetic lines have mixed so much over the ages. Most people today are mutts. However, even with a large mixture of genetics science tells us that there are still those in each person that are more dominant than others. Interestingly the dominant genetics do not necessarily have to be the larger percentage in a body either. You might have 50% Mongolian, 20% Spanish, 20% Chinese, and only 10% Israeli, but that 10% could be the dominant genetic line “awake” in you and more accessible and usable than the others.
Ben: Simple opinion or not, I think you’re onto something and your examples do make sense. Obviously they’re general and focused more on extremes, but it makes sense to draw those extremes to explain a point. How does this fit in your opinion with your genetic makeup and fighting styles?
WW: Most of my genetics are both “southern Saxon” and “northern Saxon” in origin. Keep in mind Saxon is used loosely since that time period and region contained many various “tribes” all sort of given the general name “Saxon” later on. Nevertheless the bloodline has been traced to old Germanic, Helvetian and Western Norse. The Irish blood I have is traced back to Germanic roots and even the so called Dutch bloodline on my mother side is actually from the Germanic lines in Ireland, not the Dutch. Most of the martial arts I have studied are either Chinese or Japanese in origin. No matter how many years I studied and no matter how good I became my skills and how I could make the styles look were still less than many Asian practitioners who studied their whole lives. What gave me the edge is when I started studying my roots and the fighting styles of those bloodlines. Then I began exploring those methods myself and inserting those energies into my fighting styles. It made all the difference!
It was as if I was able to open a natural door in my genetics that allowed me to meld with what was already part of the genetic energy. I learned to focus and direct that energy into my fighting abilities and long years of experience. This is why when you see me in person execute techniques; they do not look like the classic techniques and flow of the Asian systems.
As we learn and grow and explore deeper levels of self we can learn to open and tap into genetic energies that connect us to the essence of our ancestors. Once we can learn to do this we can then direct these energies into the skills we already learned in this life, no matter what genetic line they might have come out of. It’s called adaptation. Most of us have mixed genetics today. Many people have no idea what genetic lines they are made of. However, if you do know and you can tap into the most prominent ones, you have a chance to opening internal energy codes, genetic codes that can enhance all that you have become.
Ben: That’s incredible info! It just opens so many doorways of hidden potential. I’ve never thought about it before. The idea of tapping into genetic codes to unlock a primal power of the ancient bloodlines to use today is phenomenal. So you’re saying you’ve been able to tap into your Germanic and Norse dna to enhance the fighting styles you learned of Asian systems?
WW: Yes. It is not just about enhancement but actually changing what you have been taught to better suit your body and energy, your genetic essence that flows outward and interacts with the world. There is nothing mystical about it either. It’s pure genetic science. Obviously behind all that is physical is the non-physical eternal, so if you get into that realm I suppose you could state some of it is mystical as well.
Ben: Wild stuff! Your name, both first and last is also Germanic in origin, correct?
WW: Yes my name is Germanic, even the first name, not Native American like some people think when they see it.
Ben: I could see how some folk would think the first name was Native with all the Native American influence in your life.
WW: Yes perhaps. The first name connects to the bloodline prior to Roman influence into Germania and Scandinavia, before the invasions of Charlemagne when the northern and southern people were very similar, even in belief systems, before the main bloodlines of the region really fractioned out. The last name, though Swiss-German, is not actually old Germanic. The name is made of two separate pieces that were contrived to hide the old Saxon and Helvetian bloodline from the Catholic Church and their iron handed persecution after the Crusades. Atzi is actually found in the Hebrew language meaning “my tree” or “tree of life”. Gen is a Germanic pluralization = Atzigen = our tree of life. Von means of or from and ironically was given to the Atzigen family by the church as an honor. What better way to hide the old bloodline from the church and later inquisition period than to use part of a word or phrase from another language and pluralize it with German grammar?
Ben: Interesting White Wolf. So your full name sort of takes a long span of your history genetic line into account; from ancient Norse, Helvetian and Saxon through to post Crusades. I’m guessing you figured all this out through your family history digging?
WW: Yes most of it. Some I knew as a child since bits and pieces were explained to me then. I think it is a very important aspect of our personal lives and potential to research as best as we can our lineage and come to understand our genetic line. Over time we can use that information to go within and broaden self awareness and tap into that genetic energy and use it to fuel us in the present. My family dug into names, dates and locations which were all important for the further research I have been doing. But I am pretty sure I am the only one in my blood family who has been doing this aspect of the research and connecting the genetic dots in order to access and open the genetic energy pools within self. One reason I do it is because I feel I must, it is me and to better know and utilize me I need to continually explore. The other reason is to keep these roots alive.
Ben: Is there a way you tap into your genetics that could briefly be explained here?
WW: Unfortunately not. It is another one of those skills best explained in person so details do not get lost between the lines or misinterpreted by the reader. If it were something easily worded I would be happy to explain here, but the process is not. It’s a meditative process that requires both a stationary insight as well as within movement. The brain and body require stimulation in slightly different ways in order to start accessing the genetic coding. One does better in stillness while the other requires various types of movement.
Ben: Understood. I just thought I’d ask in case on the slim chance it were simple to describe.
Ben: This is all such great information and personally gives me a drive to further explore my own heritage. I had planned on going into the next topic but I think you’ve given plenty to call this interview a wrap.
Let’s save the topic of cptsd in reference to your training for the next interview. What do you say?
WW: Sounds fine to me. For anyone who wants to read further on genetic coding and lineage tapping examples please track on over to the Element Mountain Wolf's Den to the article titled Genetic Alignment Importance.
Ben: Perfect. Thanks again White Wolf for your time and insights and hopefully there are readers who gain something from it. Until next time!
Interview 2/18/17 with White Wolf Von Atzingen
Internal Processing, Reality Teachers and Physical verses Digital learning
This is the third interview with White Wolf Von Atzingen in reference to both Small Circles of 5 Animals Jujitsu and Survival Combat.
***
Ben: White Wolf I’ve seen you in live action and have to say I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone move as fast and with such power before. Guys who’ve trained under you; ex-cops and military and other combat trained people who out size you with ease even comment on your speed and power. I mean how do you do it? I’ve seen a lot of people training and in fights, but few I’ve witnessed compare to how you move. What’s your secret?
WW: No real secret. Nothing I do is any secret. It all comes down to training and awareness of self. I am sure lots of people move really fast and hit really hard. It is a big world after all. My speed comes from a process; self confidence which comes from knowing my skills and limits inside and out, hours and weeks and months and years and years of dedicated training and live experience where the skills executed in real-time were essential. Self confidence at the highest level allows for complete relaxation. Full relaxation allows for smooth and unhindered internal energy flow. This flow of energy can be directed quickly through the body to create fast body movements. Also with the speed and open energy flow through the body structure comes the ability to generate power through condensed focus. The speed and power generation requires a relaxed mind as well as body; the self confidence is essential to that process.
If you have not had your limits tested and pressed and tested again there is the burden of the personal unknown which steals full self confidence. If you have not invested the necessary amount of time and energy in training, training that fits the style of activity you are or will engage in, then self confidence will lack. For example, if you are a channel swimmer and you only train in a pool your body and brain know that you lack the actual training experience necessary to embark upon a potentially successful channel swim. Fighting is no different.
Ben: And I’d say you of all people understand your limits! That’s a great explanation. Relaxation = open energy flow = speed = condensed focus/energy = power, and it all comes down to really knowing yourself and being fully confident in your own skin. Writing it seems so simple but employing that “process”, wow is that a different story! I think that clarifies why I don’t see too many people with those abilities today.
WW: Yes in a basic nutshell that is how it works. There is more depth to it but I find that depth is better explained and understood in person.
Ben: Of course. I think many things are better explained and understood in person rather than written dialog.
Perhaps in this modern social system fighters have more limited opportunities to test their limits and refine their skills than say a channel swimmer? Would you agree with this or not?
WW: Well I know a lot of people do not like hearing this, but my firm opinion is that if you want to excel at something specific you need to find a teacher who has excelled at that very activity. As for combative oriented activities it remains the same. For instance, if you want to excel at tournament style karate you need a teacher who has lots of experience in karate tournaments; MMA fighting requires you to find a teacher who has trained in and competed in MMA style tournaments. Street fighting is no different, you need a teacher who has actual street fighting experience and of course the same goes for hand to hand combat. The totality of mental, emotional, physical and even spiritual orientation is very different between those various kinds of training and activities.
The opportunities are there for people to train in very specific modalities, but yes you need to look for them. If a person wants to excel at hand to hand combat they need to seek out a teacher who has that experience because they will also have the know how to properly train a person for that. Hand to hand combat training is VERY different than martial art training. In the proper training a student will have plenty of opportunity to test their limits.
Ben: That makes sense. I guess it really comes down to finding the right person to train you. Like you stated, that person will know how to train you for that activity better than another who may have other skill sets. Seems pretty obvious now that you say it. Just out of curiosity what might be a main difference between hand to hand combat training as opposed to MMA?
WW: MMA is a tournament sport, like boxing but with different rules. If you want to excel in mixed martial arts competition you need to train within the rules. If you break the rules you get disqualified. MMA deals mainly with knockouts and submissions between two people. All the techniques are geared towards accomplishing one of those two main winning ends. Hand to hand combat is very different because there are no rules, there will most likely be more than one opponent and there is a high probability there will be weapons involved.
MMA has padded springboard flooring to practice and compete on. Many of the techniques play upon that because you can land in relative safety while executing a flying technique. In combat the surfaces are rarely so forgiving and many times are very dangerous to take a hard fall on. Also in combat the aim is not usually a knockout or mere submission. Killing becomes very real; it is not a sport and therefore the training between the two is worlds apart.
Ben: Thanks for clarifying that. Yes that makes total sense! I suppose it’s difficult to really grasp this stuff if you’re not there in person learning it?
WW: Absolutely. I think that is one of the main issues we see happening with younger generations in today’s modern society. Too many people are trying to learn things digitally verses actual physical interaction. This leaves far too much room for vital details slipping through the cracks and getting lost. You just cannot learn any true depth and dynamic in something like martial arts or combat training unless you are physically standing in front of a teacher. You need to fully experience and feel the training and you simply cannot do that through a digital format.
It’s like trying to grasp the fullness of the three attacks by reading about them instead of physically, mentally and emotionally experiencing them. Sure I could lay out all the intricacies of sensen no sen (attack initiated in anticipation of an attack), go no sen (defensive maneuvers in response to an attack), and sen no sen (attacking simultaneously with a coming attack), as well as the 4 main keys of Timing and Distance, Intent, Self Confidence and Situational Assessment, but the reality is that each one possesses such vast variation and detail that is just impossible to explain and or grasp through mere writing, or even in video format. Even the 4 main keys contain many sub-keys impossible to explain and grasp through any means beyond physical interaction. These things can only be learned through hands on physical training and experience and those details are vital to the success of the three attacks executions.
Then we have these action movies today that are filled with completely unrealistic fight scenes that people without experience believe are reality. The digital world has laid a foundation of some extreme illusions and has definitely twisted the reality of training, fighting, martial arts and combat. It has led quickly to all this crazy Internet hate being thrown from cowardly people hiding behind false profiles and masks. On a personal basis I have no time or desire for digital warfare and bickering. I prefer the old ways in that if you have an issue with someone you buck up the courage to face them in the flesh or keep quiet.
Ben: Nicely put, and though my knowledge of say the three attacks is really limited, the awareness of how the digital world and Hollywood scene has been leading the youth astray is bluntly obvious. I’ve no idea what’s happening to the “old ways” of actually interfacing with the physical world, physically, but I find it disturbing. I hear ya on the anonymity of the Internet and where it has led the world of virtual society!
WW: A fact of life is simple – you have to earn your past, you cannot buy it, borrow it, pretend it or steal it, it must be lived.
Ben: If you don’t mind, how do you deal with online fighting?
WW: Simple – non-engagement. I ignore it and do not participate. If someone wants to fight online they can fight alone because I have far better and more productive things to do with my time.
Ben: Sounds like a great practice and one that more people should embrace.
On another topic, did you have a Survival Combat camp this February?
WW: I had one scheduled but it never materialized. All the folks interested had a hard time getting their schedules and finances, as well as health situated enough to bring it all together. So I will plan one for maybe mid spring once the weather up here softens up and makes travel a bit easier for people coming from long distances. It would have been a great class though since the hardcore reality of climate and all that it brings with it was going to be in the forefront of the outdoor winter mountain training. I will perhaps offer it again next winter, but I am sure we will have a spring and summer one running in-between.
Ben: Ah, I could see how a February outdoor Survival Combat camp in the north mountains of Vermont would take some serious dedication and will to sign up and show up! That’d be a brutal, but amazing class for sure!
I don’t want to make this too long for folks who will be reading. Maybe I’ll cut the questions here for now. I’d like to interview again real soon on two different topics that I think people might be interested in. I know I’m sure eager to learn the answers. First topic would deal with genetics and training and the second would cover how you work with cptsd in your current training and teaching. Would you be up to doing that interview?
WW: Sure why not. I am willing to speak on both those topics and do my best to answer the questions you have.
Ben: Great! I look forward to it. Thanks again for taking the time to helping me put together this little interview. I’m sure there’re folks out there who enjoy reading and appreciate your time and insights as much as I do. Until next time!
Internal Processing, Reality Teachers and Physical verses Digital learning
This is the third interview with White Wolf Von Atzingen in reference to both Small Circles of 5 Animals Jujitsu and Survival Combat.
***
Ben: White Wolf I’ve seen you in live action and have to say I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone move as fast and with such power before. Guys who’ve trained under you; ex-cops and military and other combat trained people who out size you with ease even comment on your speed and power. I mean how do you do it? I’ve seen a lot of people training and in fights, but few I’ve witnessed compare to how you move. What’s your secret?
WW: No real secret. Nothing I do is any secret. It all comes down to training and awareness of self. I am sure lots of people move really fast and hit really hard. It is a big world after all. My speed comes from a process; self confidence which comes from knowing my skills and limits inside and out, hours and weeks and months and years and years of dedicated training and live experience where the skills executed in real-time were essential. Self confidence at the highest level allows for complete relaxation. Full relaxation allows for smooth and unhindered internal energy flow. This flow of energy can be directed quickly through the body to create fast body movements. Also with the speed and open energy flow through the body structure comes the ability to generate power through condensed focus. The speed and power generation requires a relaxed mind as well as body; the self confidence is essential to that process.
If you have not had your limits tested and pressed and tested again there is the burden of the personal unknown which steals full self confidence. If you have not invested the necessary amount of time and energy in training, training that fits the style of activity you are or will engage in, then self confidence will lack. For example, if you are a channel swimmer and you only train in a pool your body and brain know that you lack the actual training experience necessary to embark upon a potentially successful channel swim. Fighting is no different.
Ben: And I’d say you of all people understand your limits! That’s a great explanation. Relaxation = open energy flow = speed = condensed focus/energy = power, and it all comes down to really knowing yourself and being fully confident in your own skin. Writing it seems so simple but employing that “process”, wow is that a different story! I think that clarifies why I don’t see too many people with those abilities today.
WW: Yes in a basic nutshell that is how it works. There is more depth to it but I find that depth is better explained and understood in person.
Ben: Of course. I think many things are better explained and understood in person rather than written dialog.
Perhaps in this modern social system fighters have more limited opportunities to test their limits and refine their skills than say a channel swimmer? Would you agree with this or not?
WW: Well I know a lot of people do not like hearing this, but my firm opinion is that if you want to excel at something specific you need to find a teacher who has excelled at that very activity. As for combative oriented activities it remains the same. For instance, if you want to excel at tournament style karate you need a teacher who has lots of experience in karate tournaments; MMA fighting requires you to find a teacher who has trained in and competed in MMA style tournaments. Street fighting is no different, you need a teacher who has actual street fighting experience and of course the same goes for hand to hand combat. The totality of mental, emotional, physical and even spiritual orientation is very different between those various kinds of training and activities.
The opportunities are there for people to train in very specific modalities, but yes you need to look for them. If a person wants to excel at hand to hand combat they need to seek out a teacher who has that experience because they will also have the know how to properly train a person for that. Hand to hand combat training is VERY different than martial art training. In the proper training a student will have plenty of opportunity to test their limits.
Ben: That makes sense. I guess it really comes down to finding the right person to train you. Like you stated, that person will know how to train you for that activity better than another who may have other skill sets. Seems pretty obvious now that you say it. Just out of curiosity what might be a main difference between hand to hand combat training as opposed to MMA?
WW: MMA is a tournament sport, like boxing but with different rules. If you want to excel in mixed martial arts competition you need to train within the rules. If you break the rules you get disqualified. MMA deals mainly with knockouts and submissions between two people. All the techniques are geared towards accomplishing one of those two main winning ends. Hand to hand combat is very different because there are no rules, there will most likely be more than one opponent and there is a high probability there will be weapons involved.
MMA has padded springboard flooring to practice and compete on. Many of the techniques play upon that because you can land in relative safety while executing a flying technique. In combat the surfaces are rarely so forgiving and many times are very dangerous to take a hard fall on. Also in combat the aim is not usually a knockout or mere submission. Killing becomes very real; it is not a sport and therefore the training between the two is worlds apart.
Ben: Thanks for clarifying that. Yes that makes total sense! I suppose it’s difficult to really grasp this stuff if you’re not there in person learning it?
WW: Absolutely. I think that is one of the main issues we see happening with younger generations in today’s modern society. Too many people are trying to learn things digitally verses actual physical interaction. This leaves far too much room for vital details slipping through the cracks and getting lost. You just cannot learn any true depth and dynamic in something like martial arts or combat training unless you are physically standing in front of a teacher. You need to fully experience and feel the training and you simply cannot do that through a digital format.
It’s like trying to grasp the fullness of the three attacks by reading about them instead of physically, mentally and emotionally experiencing them. Sure I could lay out all the intricacies of sensen no sen (attack initiated in anticipation of an attack), go no sen (defensive maneuvers in response to an attack), and sen no sen (attacking simultaneously with a coming attack), as well as the 4 main keys of Timing and Distance, Intent, Self Confidence and Situational Assessment, but the reality is that each one possesses such vast variation and detail that is just impossible to explain and or grasp through mere writing, or even in video format. Even the 4 main keys contain many sub-keys impossible to explain and grasp through any means beyond physical interaction. These things can only be learned through hands on physical training and experience and those details are vital to the success of the three attacks executions.
Then we have these action movies today that are filled with completely unrealistic fight scenes that people without experience believe are reality. The digital world has laid a foundation of some extreme illusions and has definitely twisted the reality of training, fighting, martial arts and combat. It has led quickly to all this crazy Internet hate being thrown from cowardly people hiding behind false profiles and masks. On a personal basis I have no time or desire for digital warfare and bickering. I prefer the old ways in that if you have an issue with someone you buck up the courage to face them in the flesh or keep quiet.
Ben: Nicely put, and though my knowledge of say the three attacks is really limited, the awareness of how the digital world and Hollywood scene has been leading the youth astray is bluntly obvious. I’ve no idea what’s happening to the “old ways” of actually interfacing with the physical world, physically, but I find it disturbing. I hear ya on the anonymity of the Internet and where it has led the world of virtual society!
WW: A fact of life is simple – you have to earn your past, you cannot buy it, borrow it, pretend it or steal it, it must be lived.
Ben: If you don’t mind, how do you deal with online fighting?
WW: Simple – non-engagement. I ignore it and do not participate. If someone wants to fight online they can fight alone because I have far better and more productive things to do with my time.
Ben: Sounds like a great practice and one that more people should embrace.
On another topic, did you have a Survival Combat camp this February?
WW: I had one scheduled but it never materialized. All the folks interested had a hard time getting their schedules and finances, as well as health situated enough to bring it all together. So I will plan one for maybe mid spring once the weather up here softens up and makes travel a bit easier for people coming from long distances. It would have been a great class though since the hardcore reality of climate and all that it brings with it was going to be in the forefront of the outdoor winter mountain training. I will perhaps offer it again next winter, but I am sure we will have a spring and summer one running in-between.
Ben: Ah, I could see how a February outdoor Survival Combat camp in the north mountains of Vermont would take some serious dedication and will to sign up and show up! That’d be a brutal, but amazing class for sure!
I don’t want to make this too long for folks who will be reading. Maybe I’ll cut the questions here for now. I’d like to interview again real soon on two different topics that I think people might be interested in. I know I’m sure eager to learn the answers. First topic would deal with genetics and training and the second would cover how you work with cptsd in your current training and teaching. Would you be up to doing that interview?
WW: Sure why not. I am willing to speak on both those topics and do my best to answer the questions you have.
Ben: Great! I look forward to it. Thanks again for taking the time to helping me put together this little interview. I’m sure there’re folks out there who enjoy reading and appreciate your time and insights as much as I do. Until next time!
Interview 8/30/16 with White Wolf Von Atzingen
Combat System - Survival Combat
This is the second interview with White Wolf Von Atzingen in reference to both Small Circles of 5 Animals Jujitsu and Survival Combat.
***
Ben: Thanks for returning White Wolf to do another short interview. There was a lot of great feedback from the last one. I know you’re busy scheduling and planning camps and hikes for the autumn and probably getting fire wood together for winter, so I’ll keep this brief.
WW: Not a problem. Yes I have a wilderness camp coming up in September and some hikes in October laid out. I have also been working up firewood! I expect a good long cold and snowy winter this year. I am also planning another Survival Combat class for early November. Just a 3 full day as opposed to the 5 full day I ran in July of this 2016 year.
Ben: Sounds really great! Is there a place readers can go to in order to find more details on your events?
WW: Well if folk are interested in camp outs and hikes they can visit Element Mountain and go to the schedule page. For people interested in the Survival Combat class in November they can head over to the class page- here.
Ben: OK, thanks. We talked a lot about your martial training in the last interview, about your art and experience and it was all really great information. I thought in this interview we might discuss a little about the combat system you teach. Would that be alright?
WW: Sure we can talk about that if you want.
Ben: Terrific! I think many readers would be interested in some of that info, especially since you openly teach it.
Maybe we could begin with where the combat system came from? Or do you think it’d be better to explain what the system is all about first?
WW: Either way. I am sure we will be getting to both anyway.
The combat system I am sure came from many places as pieces through decades. Its Special Forces and Agency designed. Unlike a martial art, combat systems utilized by military and agencies are stripped down to the bare essentials. Nothing extraneous, nothing fancy, nothing containing honor or rules is used. The military Special Forces and elite agency combat training is derived from bits and pieces of many martial and other fighting systems world-wide. Systems have been studied; techniques adopted and then put to the test in real combative situations in many countries with a great number and variety of people/genetics and scenarios. Only the most effective, practical and easy to learn techniques were kept, modified to fit a great many training situations and then taught to units and agents. I guess you could look at Survival Combat as a purified mutt, absent of the weaknesses found in purebreds.
Ben: Interesting. Are there different systems taught to different branches of the military and agencies?
WW: Yes. Depending upon the level of military or agency a person is training in will determine what kind of system they are trained in. The higher the position being sought out, the more advanced and dynamic the combat system training. Units like SEALs or Delta Force will obviously have far more training in combat than a four year marine grunt, for instance. Likewise, specialist field agents will have the highest level of combat training of any agent working for any agency. Trained assassins will have the highest level combat training of any agent. The government is all about “need to know”. Training falls under that specification and so a person will only be trained in a level of combative skill deemed necessary to their position.
Ben: Sure, that makes sense to me. I’d suppose it costs a great deal to train people in those systems. Money spent only on absolute necessities in their eyes.
The Survival Combat that you teach then comes from where?
WW: I learned it through the S.O.E.S Project in the 80’s. It was a specialized shadow project of the cia that fell under the 50’s and 60’s mk ultra umbrella.
Ben: Right and all that info can be found in Shadow Scorpion, correct?
WW: Yes there is a great deal of information in that book concerning the training in the project that has since been dismantled and pieces rolled into other projects through the years I am sure.
Ben: I’ve read reviews of your Survival Combat classes and some of your students have had other combat/Special Forces training. They state your combat system has many similarities. Do you feel that’s true?
WW: Any elite combat system taught in any Special Forces around the globe will have similarities, sure. They are all seeking the same things in training; elite, efficient, practical and proven. Everyone will have slight variations in technique as well as how the system is taught, but generally they have similarities. For instance, if you compare Russian Special Forces to the Survival Combat I was taught and teach today you will find many similarities, but also some clear differences. Elementally speaking the Russian system is more like water and air and mine is more along the energies of fire and earth. They accomplish the same things, and both with the utmost efficiency, but how the system’s pieces are utilized or executed are where the main variation lies. Even in those energetic differences they are both highly effective.
Ben: I’ve never heard anyone compare two combat systems quite like that before. I like it. It makes sense. Water and air are fluid and in their fluidity there’s strength. Fire’s explosive and earth’s crushing and through both is also strength, but they act very differently from one another. I’m sure I’m just poorly grazing the surface of its reality though. It’s certainly something powerful to ponder.
I suppose this sort of rolls us into what the system’s all about then?
WW: In words I think it is pretty simple to explain. Survival Combat was designed for the absolute most effective, hardcore, no messing around combative techniques that could be employed by anyone of any size with a high percentage of success. It was constructed of philosophy, tactics, techniques and focus to disable attackers in the most straight-forward, brutal and successful manner possible in a combative atmosphere. Nothing fancy and you do not have to be 225 pounds of raw muscle to employ the techniques with effectiveness. A 100 pound person can stop a 285 pound person with as much efficiency as the opposite. The system realizes that at least half the challenge of a combative situation resides in the mind. Therefore it targets equal training of mind and body.
Even though through words it sounds fairly simplistic, the bone deep reality of the training if far more complex, dynamic and fiercely challenging and demanding upon body, brain, emotion, and even spiritual aspects of a practitioner. After all, you cannot expect the training of live combat to be easy. The goal is survival, not winning, hence the name Survival Combat.
Ben: Wow! It’s certainly nothing like any martial arts training I’ve ever had. It doesn’t even sound like the brutal competition MMA training. It’s like the trainings in a whole different league. I think you explained it as well as it can be. Thank you for that.
WW: You need to understand that most of my students are civilians who want a much higher level of training than they can find in most other places. But they are not likely to find themselves in real combative situations, their chances are much lower than someone in the armed forced, field agents, law enforcement and what have you. Therefore as hardcore and demanding as the training is, I gear it towards the individuals in the class. I see no need to put someone through the severity of training I went through when the chances of them ever having to use such heightened levels of skill in life is very low. The reality is that there are not many people living a civilian life who would want to or could handle the sheer brutality of the highest levels of Survival Combat training unless they took years to work up to it.
The training we went through in the 80’s was beyond brutal and many times took place in highly violent conditions that threatened the integrity of one’s body and even life. We trained insanely long hours under the harshest conditions they could put us. Only if a student specifically requests that level of training, and only if I see they have a chance of handling it will I agree to give them a shot. But safety is my main concern with students and that means I have the final say as to who might be ready for such levels and who is not. Many people think they are, but its all ego talking, not reality.
Ben: That makes good sense White Wolf. After reading your book, seeing what you can do in person, feeling it and having gone through some more general training myself, I can see how serious discretion is imperative. I can see how someone’s ego could get them hurt in training as they try to bite off more than they could chew. In my mind I feel the media, video games, movies and hero stories really set some people up for unrealistic ideas of what they can do and how much they can take. If you think about it, just how much can some guy who works in an office 5 days a week, trains in the gym a few nights and doesn’t eat an optimal diet really endure day in and day out in that kind of training? Doesn’t the body need to build up to that?
WW: Yes the body and mind both have to build up to those high levels. They need to be built properly on every level in order to be successful and not break in the process. It takes time, tons of effort and serious fortitude. I agree that the media today really fills people’s heads with harshly unrealistic instant gratification potentials. The realism of Survival Combat training is a far cry different than media pumped fantasy. I do not have a single student at this time who could honestly take the level and intensity of training I can dish out. That includes the civilian students and the specialty students who work in law enforcement. But like I said, I gear classes to the students participating to make it challenging without pushing anyone so far passed their limits to cause serious harm.
Ben: Nice! Any kind of real combat training is expected to be harsh, but gearing everything to individual capabilities makes good sense. I bet you could dish out some brutal training! I couldn’t even imagine that level – Wow!
Would you say that most of your students struggle more with the physical aspects or mental aspect of the training?
WW: The physical training is hard, but I think most student find the mental and emotional aspects of the training to be the most challenging for them. Most people today are conditioned into very small mental and emotional blocks of existence; speaking of people who did not grow up in war zones. When it comes to real combative training and all it involves, it challenges people to consider and feel things they usually are not required to experience in more non-combative lives. People who have not had to risk or save their own lives or the life of another from extreme violence that could end in death have difficult comprehending those levels of experience. It is not an easy thing. Some people can grasp it easier than others. Even my students whom have taken years of martial arts and reached high levels of training find it challenging to switch from the martial art mindset to the mindsets required for Survival Combat training. The body follows the brain. Mindset is a huge aspect of the training.
Ben: Impressive. That really makes sense. The whole aspect of how most of us are raised and conditioned to feel, think and act today I can see is very counter to combative necessities. This is just amazing stuff White Wolf! I think we’ve covered enough for this interview. I won’t keep you any longer. Maybe down the road we can continue in another interview? Though I’m getting really busy and will be booked for quite some time, so I’m not sure when we’ll be able to hookup again. For now let me say how much I appreciate your time and that I know readers will continue to gain insight from your words.
WW: Thank you and it is my pleasure. Also thank you to readers who are taking the time to read and explore these topics.
Combat System - Survival Combat
This is the second interview with White Wolf Von Atzingen in reference to both Small Circles of 5 Animals Jujitsu and Survival Combat.
***
Ben: Thanks for returning White Wolf to do another short interview. There was a lot of great feedback from the last one. I know you’re busy scheduling and planning camps and hikes for the autumn and probably getting fire wood together for winter, so I’ll keep this brief.
WW: Not a problem. Yes I have a wilderness camp coming up in September and some hikes in October laid out. I have also been working up firewood! I expect a good long cold and snowy winter this year. I am also planning another Survival Combat class for early November. Just a 3 full day as opposed to the 5 full day I ran in July of this 2016 year.
Ben: Sounds really great! Is there a place readers can go to in order to find more details on your events?
WW: Well if folk are interested in camp outs and hikes they can visit Element Mountain and go to the schedule page. For people interested in the Survival Combat class in November they can head over to the class page- here.
Ben: OK, thanks. We talked a lot about your martial training in the last interview, about your art and experience and it was all really great information. I thought in this interview we might discuss a little about the combat system you teach. Would that be alright?
WW: Sure we can talk about that if you want.
Ben: Terrific! I think many readers would be interested in some of that info, especially since you openly teach it.
Maybe we could begin with where the combat system came from? Or do you think it’d be better to explain what the system is all about first?
WW: Either way. I am sure we will be getting to both anyway.
The combat system I am sure came from many places as pieces through decades. Its Special Forces and Agency designed. Unlike a martial art, combat systems utilized by military and agencies are stripped down to the bare essentials. Nothing extraneous, nothing fancy, nothing containing honor or rules is used. The military Special Forces and elite agency combat training is derived from bits and pieces of many martial and other fighting systems world-wide. Systems have been studied; techniques adopted and then put to the test in real combative situations in many countries with a great number and variety of people/genetics and scenarios. Only the most effective, practical and easy to learn techniques were kept, modified to fit a great many training situations and then taught to units and agents. I guess you could look at Survival Combat as a purified mutt, absent of the weaknesses found in purebreds.
Ben: Interesting. Are there different systems taught to different branches of the military and agencies?
WW: Yes. Depending upon the level of military or agency a person is training in will determine what kind of system they are trained in. The higher the position being sought out, the more advanced and dynamic the combat system training. Units like SEALs or Delta Force will obviously have far more training in combat than a four year marine grunt, for instance. Likewise, specialist field agents will have the highest level of combat training of any agent working for any agency. Trained assassins will have the highest level combat training of any agent. The government is all about “need to know”. Training falls under that specification and so a person will only be trained in a level of combative skill deemed necessary to their position.
Ben: Sure, that makes sense to me. I’d suppose it costs a great deal to train people in those systems. Money spent only on absolute necessities in their eyes.
The Survival Combat that you teach then comes from where?
WW: I learned it through the S.O.E.S Project in the 80’s. It was a specialized shadow project of the cia that fell under the 50’s and 60’s mk ultra umbrella.
Ben: Right and all that info can be found in Shadow Scorpion, correct?
WW: Yes there is a great deal of information in that book concerning the training in the project that has since been dismantled and pieces rolled into other projects through the years I am sure.
Ben: I’ve read reviews of your Survival Combat classes and some of your students have had other combat/Special Forces training. They state your combat system has many similarities. Do you feel that’s true?
WW: Any elite combat system taught in any Special Forces around the globe will have similarities, sure. They are all seeking the same things in training; elite, efficient, practical and proven. Everyone will have slight variations in technique as well as how the system is taught, but generally they have similarities. For instance, if you compare Russian Special Forces to the Survival Combat I was taught and teach today you will find many similarities, but also some clear differences. Elementally speaking the Russian system is more like water and air and mine is more along the energies of fire and earth. They accomplish the same things, and both with the utmost efficiency, but how the system’s pieces are utilized or executed are where the main variation lies. Even in those energetic differences they are both highly effective.
Ben: I’ve never heard anyone compare two combat systems quite like that before. I like it. It makes sense. Water and air are fluid and in their fluidity there’s strength. Fire’s explosive and earth’s crushing and through both is also strength, but they act very differently from one another. I’m sure I’m just poorly grazing the surface of its reality though. It’s certainly something powerful to ponder.
I suppose this sort of rolls us into what the system’s all about then?
WW: In words I think it is pretty simple to explain. Survival Combat was designed for the absolute most effective, hardcore, no messing around combative techniques that could be employed by anyone of any size with a high percentage of success. It was constructed of philosophy, tactics, techniques and focus to disable attackers in the most straight-forward, brutal and successful manner possible in a combative atmosphere. Nothing fancy and you do not have to be 225 pounds of raw muscle to employ the techniques with effectiveness. A 100 pound person can stop a 285 pound person with as much efficiency as the opposite. The system realizes that at least half the challenge of a combative situation resides in the mind. Therefore it targets equal training of mind and body.
Even though through words it sounds fairly simplistic, the bone deep reality of the training if far more complex, dynamic and fiercely challenging and demanding upon body, brain, emotion, and even spiritual aspects of a practitioner. After all, you cannot expect the training of live combat to be easy. The goal is survival, not winning, hence the name Survival Combat.
Ben: Wow! It’s certainly nothing like any martial arts training I’ve ever had. It doesn’t even sound like the brutal competition MMA training. It’s like the trainings in a whole different league. I think you explained it as well as it can be. Thank you for that.
WW: You need to understand that most of my students are civilians who want a much higher level of training than they can find in most other places. But they are not likely to find themselves in real combative situations, their chances are much lower than someone in the armed forced, field agents, law enforcement and what have you. Therefore as hardcore and demanding as the training is, I gear it towards the individuals in the class. I see no need to put someone through the severity of training I went through when the chances of them ever having to use such heightened levels of skill in life is very low. The reality is that there are not many people living a civilian life who would want to or could handle the sheer brutality of the highest levels of Survival Combat training unless they took years to work up to it.
The training we went through in the 80’s was beyond brutal and many times took place in highly violent conditions that threatened the integrity of one’s body and even life. We trained insanely long hours under the harshest conditions they could put us. Only if a student specifically requests that level of training, and only if I see they have a chance of handling it will I agree to give them a shot. But safety is my main concern with students and that means I have the final say as to who might be ready for such levels and who is not. Many people think they are, but its all ego talking, not reality.
Ben: That makes good sense White Wolf. After reading your book, seeing what you can do in person, feeling it and having gone through some more general training myself, I can see how serious discretion is imperative. I can see how someone’s ego could get them hurt in training as they try to bite off more than they could chew. In my mind I feel the media, video games, movies and hero stories really set some people up for unrealistic ideas of what they can do and how much they can take. If you think about it, just how much can some guy who works in an office 5 days a week, trains in the gym a few nights and doesn’t eat an optimal diet really endure day in and day out in that kind of training? Doesn’t the body need to build up to that?
WW: Yes the body and mind both have to build up to those high levels. They need to be built properly on every level in order to be successful and not break in the process. It takes time, tons of effort and serious fortitude. I agree that the media today really fills people’s heads with harshly unrealistic instant gratification potentials. The realism of Survival Combat training is a far cry different than media pumped fantasy. I do not have a single student at this time who could honestly take the level and intensity of training I can dish out. That includes the civilian students and the specialty students who work in law enforcement. But like I said, I gear classes to the students participating to make it challenging without pushing anyone so far passed their limits to cause serious harm.
Ben: Nice! Any kind of real combat training is expected to be harsh, but gearing everything to individual capabilities makes good sense. I bet you could dish out some brutal training! I couldn’t even imagine that level – Wow!
Would you say that most of your students struggle more with the physical aspects or mental aspect of the training?
WW: The physical training is hard, but I think most student find the mental and emotional aspects of the training to be the most challenging for them. Most people today are conditioned into very small mental and emotional blocks of existence; speaking of people who did not grow up in war zones. When it comes to real combative training and all it involves, it challenges people to consider and feel things they usually are not required to experience in more non-combative lives. People who have not had to risk or save their own lives or the life of another from extreme violence that could end in death have difficult comprehending those levels of experience. It is not an easy thing. Some people can grasp it easier than others. Even my students whom have taken years of martial arts and reached high levels of training find it challenging to switch from the martial art mindset to the mindsets required for Survival Combat training. The body follows the brain. Mindset is a huge aspect of the training.
Ben: Impressive. That really makes sense. The whole aspect of how most of us are raised and conditioned to feel, think and act today I can see is very counter to combative necessities. This is just amazing stuff White Wolf! I think we’ve covered enough for this interview. I won’t keep you any longer. Maybe down the road we can continue in another interview? Though I’m getting really busy and will be booked for quite some time, so I’m not sure when we’ll be able to hookup again. For now let me say how much I appreciate your time and that I know readers will continue to gain insight from your words.
WW: Thank you and it is my pleasure. Also thank you to readers who are taking the time to read and explore these topics.
Interview 5/11/16 with White Wolf Von Atzingen
White Wolf's Martial Art and Fight Background
White Wolf thanks for agreeing to do this interview. I know you’re busy so I’ll try keeping to the point and not dragging the questions on too long.
For readers – I decided I wanted to interview White Wolf Von Atzingen on his martial art and martial training, something I haven’t seen any other interviewer so far get into. I felt the easiest method for this interview was written. So here it is.
Ben: I love your Small Circles of 5 Animals Jujitsu website. It contains some wonderful information and to me really shows a great respect to the art, your teachers and students. I think the dialog from your students adds a really powerful dynamic and perspective to you are a person and teacher.
WW: Thanks Ben. Yes I am pleased with how the website turned out. It’s a work in progress of course and I have plans to have other sections and videos added over time, but for now I am satisfied it gets the message across well enough.
Ben: Maybe we can begin where you started your martial arts training and perhaps why, what drove you to start training in martial arts?
WW: I guess that is a place that makes sense to start with. I was interested in martial arts since I was probably 5 years old. I dreamed of finding a master to train under. I guess at the time I had no idea of styles and so really had no particular style I found more interesting than another. My child mind just thought martial arts in general were really neat. I would say I found them rather exotic but since I was also intrigued by Native American warriors and I lived in a very rich area for Native American history, maybe exotic is not the best word. I think rich is the word. It was something that just felt real, something with depth and seemed to touch my core in ways I could not possibly comprehend at that age. I have to say that was the main reason, if it could be called a reason, that I found martial arts an area of profound interest.
Ben: Nice. It seems the nature of martial arts was somewhere in your genetics, or even spirit, just starting to resonate and drive you. So did you start training at 5 years of age?
WW: No, I began training at the age of 9, but the first year was really just dabbling. My real training began when I was 10.
Ben: What style did you start with at 9 years old?
WW: I began with Small Circles of 5 Animals Jujitsu under my Elder Master Meechgalanne when I was 10. During my 9th year I went to a few karate classes with a guy I went to school with. He was a real gung-ho, high energy big ego kind of person and the school matched him well. It was a typical 70’s, early 80’s karate school – big talk, big ego, ra, ra get em attitude. Most of the training that year though was me just taking the few things I learned in class and practicing them over and over at home. But once I began training under Meechgalanne in Small Circles of 5 Animals Jujitsu I left the brief period of karate behind. For me there was no comparison. I think it was mainly the richness of the training in the jujitsu verses the karate I was exposed to that really hooked me in the very beginning. At that age I had no idea what to look for or how to gauge the different styles, so I think it really came down to the teachers and how the material was presented.
Ben: What was it like training under a real Elder Master? It must have really been something!
WW: I have trained under many martial arts teachers through the years and the only ones that ever really stuck out as being high class were the grandmasters. To be able to train under them I felt to be a true gift. I would marvel at their skill and how much of their lives they dedicated to the art and self discovery through their training. It showed. When training under other teachers the lessons were partial and many of them quite thin. I could tell they themselves did not really have a firm grasp on what they were teaching, or they did and they were so filled with fear that they did not want to teach the technique’s reality and keep it a secret. I mean this is not the ancient days were a master kept secrets within techniques to themselves for fear of a student come to them later in life and challenging them to the death.
Meechgalanne never held secrets within the moves from me. He presented every technique and its philosophy in such a way that I could discover it for myself within, where the technique truly mattered. But at the same time he would never present a technique he knew I was not ready for.
Ben: How many years have you studied Small Circles of 5 Animals Jujitsu?
WW: I started when I was 10 and I never stopped. So as of this interview, 34 years.
Ben: That’s a long time to study anything! You mentioned having to study other styles as well. Why was this and what other styles did you study?
WW: Meechgalanne wanted me to branch out and study other styles and with other teachers so that I knew what else was out there and how the styles differed. To him it was all about diversity rather than honing in on one specific style and never experiencing anything beyond it. He felt that to make one better at their preferred style they had to first study other styles of martial arts to understand their philosophies and principles. One day in my third year of training under him, he came to me and told me he would not teach me any more unless I went out and began studying at least two other styles. I could choose whichever I wanted, but he told me that is what was required of me. So I went out looking.
At first I found a Chinese Boxing school. It was rather a run of the mill kind of place and I did not last long. I found it very boring. I think I reached blue belt or something like that. After that I found a guy teaching Qi Gong and Tai Chi. I studied with him for maybe half a year or so. Then I began studying Muai Thai and for a while loved it because it was quite rough and I liked the competition. I was still studying Small Circles of 5 Animals Jujitsu at this point. I branched out again and began studying 18 Hand Lohan, a southern Chinese style. It was OK, but I did not get along with the teacher very well. Master Lee was excellent at the style but I did not mesh with how he taught it. Years later I studied Shao Lin Kung Fu and the styles within of Eagle Claw, Monkey, Crane and Tiger; the paths of Wu Mountain, the I-Chin Ching and Yang Style Tai Chi under Grandmaster The’.
In Junior High and High school I wrestled. I was not very good at the sport because I had been taking Jujitsu for years and so in situations where I could not capitalize with a wrestling technique I would resort to a grappling technique and well the coaches did not condone Jujitsu techniques in place of wrestling techniques. Needless to say I was disqualified a fair few time… but I wrestled nevertheless for five years just for the fun of it.
I really enjoyed the various styles of Kung Fu. I think my favorite martial styles next to Small Circles of 5 Animals Jujitsu are Eagle Claw and Muai Thai.
Ben: That’s quite the varied study! You really branched out didn’t you? I suppose it makes sense to study many others styles like you did in order to really get a feel for martial arts in general. I’d also suppose it makes practical sense to study other styles so you’d know how to fight other style techniques from your core style. Could you tell me what ranks you achieved?
WW: I can but they really do not mean much in my mind. Most of the schools that gave ranks were speed rank schools rather than the real traditional grading systems. Many of the mainstream style schools today give black belts out in a year and a half, which is quite crazy. I gained the rank of black in Muai Thai, Lohan and later Shao Lin Kung Fu. But like I said, I place no weight in those titles since the schools were geared to a fast pace of learning and advancement.
Ben: Am I correct in stating you were involved in street fighting as well for a time?
WW: Yes that is correct. I had a rough childhood in many aspects and was a very angry adolescent. Street fighting was my drug you might say. I used it as a release valve for that anger inside me. I certainly do not condone such activity today and strongly suggest learning other ways for resolving internal anger, but for me in the 80’s that was all I knew of dealing with it. I was close enough to Philadelphia to be exposed to street fights for money spanning from the city up to Lancaster and Reading and over to Harrisburg. People would even come out of the cities in New Jersey to fight in eastern Pennsylvania. It was a big fight region. I mean anyone who knows anything about Philly knows it is one of the fight capitols of the country. So yes I began fighting for money on the street when I was 13. It was an ugly business with a very ugly crowd.
It was my life. I trained and I fought and when I was not fighting I was in the woods learning about the wildness of the earth. I was always sore and my body was hard from fighting. I fought and trained so much I did not even bruise anymore. Your body gets used to it and it takes a huge beating to leave bruises after a while.
Ben: That sounds like brutal life and one I would not have survived in. I take it you received quite a few injuries during those fighting years?
WW: Oh yea. I had broken, cracked and chipped bones, dislocated joints, one or two concussions, sprains, bruised organs and whatnot. Yes it was very hard on the body.
Ben: That’s harsh! I’d think someone would have to be addicted to it in some form to continue enduring and going back for more. I watch these fights on TV and couldn’t imagine sighing up for that, training that hard and going in the ring and getting pummeled; even if by some miracle I won. That seems like a breed apart from my lifestyle. Though I must admit, I enjoy watching! Have you ever competed and when was the last time?
WW: Yes I have competed many times in my youth. There were always competitions happening during the 80’s in PA, MD, NJ, NY… I competed in a wide variety of martial arts events during those times. Most were a bit more brutal than many today since padding was not very popular yet. I competed in places like Binghamton, Allentown, Harrisburg, Lancaster, Baltimore, Trenton and Philadelphia. Most were open competitions, meaning any style could participate. I think the last one was in the mid 90’s or so. It was the Eagle Championships. I took first place in the masters down and ground division.
Ben: Did you ever consider competing in the UFC?
WW: Interestingly, yes. The very first Ultimate Fighting Championship took place in November of 1993 in Colorado. I happened to be living in Colorado at the time and was teaching Small Circles of 5 Animals Jujitsu. The UFC organization was trying to get the name and event out there as much as they could, so it was pretty unknown at the time. They had mailed out invitations and applications to potential fighters in the state. Perhaps other states as well, I am not sure. I received one such invite and application, I suppose because I was teaching. I was very interested.
They were asking for proof of training and styles, a short video of you training and a short video of you sparring. They may have asked for some other things as well, but I cannot remember, it was a while ago. I started getting my credentials together and lining things up to get training and sparring on video tape. A couple weeks later I read the fine print on once section of the application where they required you to have your own medical insurance and a very high level of it. For me that was the kicker. I had no medical coverage and could not afford it, especially at the level they required. I was distressed because no other competition I had ever been in required that and I wanted to compete. So I called them up and asked if there was a way around that and they told me they were sorry but there was not. All fighters had to come in with their own coverage. I contacted insurance companies to inquire, but because of my age, profession and whatnot they could not offer me insurance that I could afford.
So I gathered all the things the UFC required and sent it in saying I had no insurance but if they changed that requirement to let me know. They contacted me back saying they liked what I sent in and if I could get medical coverage in time they wanted to bring me in for the preliminary protocols. Unfortunately I could not get coverage and so was quite disappointed.
Ben: That sucks. It’s pretty cool that you got an invite though for the very first UFC. I can only imagine how bummed you were. I remember watching that first one and there was some huge sumo guy in there. I’d never get in that cage! But I don’t have the skill or attitude either. I’ve always found them great fun to watch though. They sure have changed since the first couple. Would you ever consider competing in the UFC now?
WW: Ha, nope. Even though it would be a lot of fun, my body cannot handle that level of endurance competition anymore. I struggle with ongoing diagnosed nerve pain from nerve dame in my spine and stage 1 adrenal exhaustion with extremely high levels of cortisol output. Sure I am good for the short run emergency situation on the street and things like that, but forget the ring anymore. I can teach and demonstrate, but my heavy competition days are over. But hey, I have the medical insurance today! Ha, ha.
Ben: I thought as much knowing a bit about your background, but I had wondered what your thoughts were on it. It makes perfect sense and I think it’s a wise choice not to compete anymore. I’m sure your body’s endured a terrible amount of injuries over the years. I’m guessing from what you say there are some that still plague you today?
WW: Yes my body has endured more than a fair share of abuse and it reminds me every day. Many broken bones and cracked ribs, sprains and dislocations; shoulders, ankles, wrists, fingers and toes, chest wall contusions, organ bruises and contusions, concussions, stab wounds, severed tendons, torn ligaments, nerve damage and the list goes on. Yes all those injuries over decades of fighting take a toll on the body that is hard to recover from. I work on healing on a daily basis but it is slow going and some of the damage may very well be irreversible without highly expensive and invasive surgical procedures that are not guaranteed to work. My doctors tell me that even though chronologically I am in my mid 40’s, my body is not and is much older. I never give up though or give in. I do my best to seek out better/more effective healing methods and continue the long process of healing and management.
I did ask my doctors a few years ago if they thought I might be able to compete again and they looked at me like I was nuts and said flat out – NO. Well it never hurts to ask, right…
Ben: I’m just surprised you’re still alive! Kudos! I’ve read some of your students say that even though they can see your pain, when you demonstrate a technique or series of techniques it’s like the pain disappears and you’re unhindered by it. Is this true and if so what’s your secret?
WW: Ha, well yes I am in pain most of the time. When I am demonstrating a technique I funnel all my attention and everything I am in the moment into the technique. The technique and I become an inseparable unit, a singular point of energy. In that state my focus does not recognize the pain, only the flow of energy. It is not really a secret but rather a trained state of being, a trained state of mind, body and spirit. If I could remain in such a state I might very well do so, but that kind of focus level is intense and takes a great deal of acquired internal assets to uphold, far too much to uphold indefinitely in the physical body. Sure I have heard of some great masters of old who could attain such a state of physical being permanently, but I have never met anyone who could. The physical body ages, it is inevitable. No matter how much one focuses on higher states of being and refined health of body, mind and spirit, everyone grows old and all physical bodies weaken and end.
Ben: Incredible White Wolf. I’ve read about the internal aspects of high level martial arts practitioners, but couldn’t ever really comprehend it all myself. I’m sure it’s because I’ve never practiced the arts, let alone the higher teachings found at advanced levels. I thought I read somewhere that one of your students received a burn from your energy. Am I right in that recollection?
WW: Oh yea, that. Over the years I have had a few students that I trusted a great deal and they had wished to feel a little of the advanced energy from internal energy direction. The most recent ones were in a specialized combat class last year. They had really wanted to get down and dirty in the class and target some hardcore study and application. Since I knew them both very well and they had been asking I decided to open some of my techniques into the internal energy realm. I was demonstrating a specific kind of grab on one of their wrists and explaining the control dynamics of proper grabbing. I went on to show how you could put someone on the ground just by grabbing the proper way. I funneled internal energy through my hand and into their wrist and they dropped like a rock. They were so impressed they asked me to do it again so they could focus on how it felt. I obliged and this time amped up the energy flow a little more and literally burned his skin off where the center of my palm made contact with it. Crazy enough, he loved it and said he wears the scar with pride. Too funny.
On another student that I trusted a great deal I was demonstrating another grab on the upper bicep. Again I showed the difference between normal grabbing, strength grabbing, tendon grabbing and then internal energy grabbing. During the internal energy grab, the energy flowing through my hand left a huge bruise on his arm and I was only lightly placing my hand on his skin. There was no compression force at all; it was just directed internal energy flow. He also walked around displaying his bruise with pride. Again, too funny. But I do not use this type of demonstration on students unless they are at a certain level.
Ben: Wild! I can see why but for those selected few I bet the experience it like none other. I mean, just to feel that kind of power flowing through someone must be incredible.
I want to back up a bit and talk a little more on your art if I may. I don’t want to ask question that you already have information about on your website though.
Meechgalanne passed on the Elder title to you in 92, is that correct?
WW: Yes, just before he died he passed on the highest rank of the art to me. That was in the early summer of 1992.
Ben: Since then have you kept the style the same or have you altered any of it?
WW: Good question. Whenever an art is passed on to someone the idea is not only that the new art holder will maintain the highest integrity of the style, but also continue its evolution. No art should remain stagnant. All martial systems need to evolve with deeper understanding. Though I have upheld the integrity of Small Circles of 5 Animals Jujitsu to the best of my ability, I have also furthered the arts growth over the last 24 years.
Ben: That must be quite a responsibility. How did you feel when Meechgalanne passed the art on to you?
WW: Well at first it was a great honor of course. But when he died the comfort zone of knowing he was around to assist was gone and the reality of it all set in. It was difficult for some time because thoughts of not being worthy thinking you really do not know how to proceed with it all takes hold. It took me quite a while to really come to terms with it all and begin to work on advancing the system through my own evolutions.
Ben: Did you study any other styles after you reached the Elder level of your art?
WW: Yes actually I did. Nobody is ever too high or too old to continue learning from others. Anyone who thinks otherwise has a raging ego that might need some attention. After I held the Elder rank I went on to start out as white belt in Shao Lin Kung Fu and worked my way up to black. I also study various aspects of Jwing-Ming’s work on qigong and Tai Chi. My main areas of continued martial study interest lies in the internal realms. I am no longer very interested in studying the hard core external aspects of martial arts. I have more than enough years of study and practical application experience with that. Even though I also have many years of internal martial arts practice and practical application experience, it is an area that can always be advanced within oneself. After all, I only have a few decades of internal martial arts practice, and in this area of the arts that is a drop in the bucket.
Ben: I would assume that the internal study would assist your healing path far more powerfully than external system studies would. Am I correct in that assumption?
WW: Absolutely. The external aspects are great for strength and speed, flexibility, endurance and overall fitness. However, without the internal aspects the body will eventually breakdown from the external focuses. The internal studies are the real foundation of the martial arts because it works to build the core of the life-force, cultivate the foundation energy of the body so the body can attain very high levels of internal performance throughout old age. The external martial practitioner will weaken as they age and be unable to successfully access and utilize the depths of their energy because it will have been depleted. The practitioner who focuses on developing the internal power through martial study will be able to call upon that energy intensity and flow for health and even defense in old age. This is one major reason all the advanced teachings of Small Circles of 5 Animals Jujitsu are internally oriented as opposed to MMA cockfighting competition type focuses.
Ben: That makes perfect sense, thank you for explaining. Do you know if it’s hard to find high level internal style teachers today? I mean it seems the external styles are everywhere.
WW: Yes you can find them, but you need to look in a different way than when you are seeking an externally focused art. Sure many arts claim they teach internal philosophies, but when it really comes down to it you will find that most that claim that do not actually have the quality teachings required for such advanced study. So you need to seek out the internal style teachers separately. I mean if you are young and wish to work your way up through an external style to perhaps gain the level to where the depths of internal work will be taught to you, go for it. However, if you are in your 30’s or older I suggest going directly to internal masters. I am quite positive the only reason I am still alive today is because of all the internal study I had throughout the years.
Ben: I guess the ego is drawn to the flashy external styles and competition?
WW: Most external styles are very outwardly dynamic and showy, sure. Yes the ego and power drive of youth seeks competitive styles and there is nothing wrong with any of it. It all has a place. Internal arts are slower. There are no shortcuts and you cannot pretend. You either have it or you do not. It takes many, many long slow years of practice to really feel the benefits of internal martial study and this takes extreme dedication and patience, many times far more than the youth of today possess.
Ben: And you had some pretty elite combat training through the government as well.
WW: Yes I had advanced training in things like Lethal Defense, Offensive Hand-to-Hand Combat, Weapons Disarmament, Offensive Defense, Close Quarters Combat, Edged Weapons, Ground Combat, Improvised Weapons, Internal Energy Sustainment, Psychological Combat Preparation and other focused along those lines, but it is an area I have spoken about so many times before, I do not really feel like rehashing it all again here.
Ben: I understand. Not a problem but thanks for at least laying out a few of these specialties for us.
Ben: I don’t want to drag this on too long here, especially since it’s a written interview. I want to wrap up with a couple questions on your classes. I see you have a Survival Combat Camp scheduled for July of this year, 2016. Is this open to anyone?
WW: Yes I have a 5 day Survival Combat Camp planned for July 22-26, 2016. Anyone is welcome to sign up and join in on the camp. It will be an intensive camp with long hours of hard training, so that is certainly something to keep in mind for those interested.
Ben: Good to know. How about other classes?
WW: This year I have stepped back a bit from doing a lot of teaching while I work to stabilize my cortisol production and work to strengthen my adrenals. Both are very slow processes that take a great deal of time and patience. So at this time I will host specialized martial classes here and there throughout the year with interest. Meaning if a small group of people are interested in learning in a specific area within my expertise for a weekend, a week or for longer periods I will entertain the request and work on logistics with them.
Ben: That just makes good sense White Wolf and I think anyone who would be lucky enough to train with you would understand just how lucky they are. I find there aren’t a great deal of high quality instructors around, especially ones with the amount of hardcore experience you’ve lived, and in my opinion an instructor who’s life depended upon their skill can tap into and understand the reality of the techniques so much better than someone who just learned it from a teacher and maybe used it in sparring or a controlled competition.
OK, let’s wrap this up for now. Thank you so much White Wolf for taking the time and agreeing to this interview. It was a great honor and I think we opened some really nice information. Hopefully readers will get something out of it. It’s always surprised me with how many people have interviewed you through the years that none of them focused on your martial arts experience. Thanks a million White Wolf!
WW: Thank you Ben for the interest and getting this together. I wish you the best.
~ Interview conducted by Ben, an Element Mountain student and owner of Bwebsecure. ~
White Wolf's Martial Art and Fight Background
White Wolf thanks for agreeing to do this interview. I know you’re busy so I’ll try keeping to the point and not dragging the questions on too long.
For readers – I decided I wanted to interview White Wolf Von Atzingen on his martial art and martial training, something I haven’t seen any other interviewer so far get into. I felt the easiest method for this interview was written. So here it is.
Ben: I love your Small Circles of 5 Animals Jujitsu website. It contains some wonderful information and to me really shows a great respect to the art, your teachers and students. I think the dialog from your students adds a really powerful dynamic and perspective to you are a person and teacher.
WW: Thanks Ben. Yes I am pleased with how the website turned out. It’s a work in progress of course and I have plans to have other sections and videos added over time, but for now I am satisfied it gets the message across well enough.
Ben: Maybe we can begin where you started your martial arts training and perhaps why, what drove you to start training in martial arts?
WW: I guess that is a place that makes sense to start with. I was interested in martial arts since I was probably 5 years old. I dreamed of finding a master to train under. I guess at the time I had no idea of styles and so really had no particular style I found more interesting than another. My child mind just thought martial arts in general were really neat. I would say I found them rather exotic but since I was also intrigued by Native American warriors and I lived in a very rich area for Native American history, maybe exotic is not the best word. I think rich is the word. It was something that just felt real, something with depth and seemed to touch my core in ways I could not possibly comprehend at that age. I have to say that was the main reason, if it could be called a reason, that I found martial arts an area of profound interest.
Ben: Nice. It seems the nature of martial arts was somewhere in your genetics, or even spirit, just starting to resonate and drive you. So did you start training at 5 years of age?
WW: No, I began training at the age of 9, but the first year was really just dabbling. My real training began when I was 10.
Ben: What style did you start with at 9 years old?
WW: I began with Small Circles of 5 Animals Jujitsu under my Elder Master Meechgalanne when I was 10. During my 9th year I went to a few karate classes with a guy I went to school with. He was a real gung-ho, high energy big ego kind of person and the school matched him well. It was a typical 70’s, early 80’s karate school – big talk, big ego, ra, ra get em attitude. Most of the training that year though was me just taking the few things I learned in class and practicing them over and over at home. But once I began training under Meechgalanne in Small Circles of 5 Animals Jujitsu I left the brief period of karate behind. For me there was no comparison. I think it was mainly the richness of the training in the jujitsu verses the karate I was exposed to that really hooked me in the very beginning. At that age I had no idea what to look for or how to gauge the different styles, so I think it really came down to the teachers and how the material was presented.
Ben: What was it like training under a real Elder Master? It must have really been something!
WW: I have trained under many martial arts teachers through the years and the only ones that ever really stuck out as being high class were the grandmasters. To be able to train under them I felt to be a true gift. I would marvel at their skill and how much of their lives they dedicated to the art and self discovery through their training. It showed. When training under other teachers the lessons were partial and many of them quite thin. I could tell they themselves did not really have a firm grasp on what they were teaching, or they did and they were so filled with fear that they did not want to teach the technique’s reality and keep it a secret. I mean this is not the ancient days were a master kept secrets within techniques to themselves for fear of a student come to them later in life and challenging them to the death.
Meechgalanne never held secrets within the moves from me. He presented every technique and its philosophy in such a way that I could discover it for myself within, where the technique truly mattered. But at the same time he would never present a technique he knew I was not ready for.
Ben: How many years have you studied Small Circles of 5 Animals Jujitsu?
WW: I started when I was 10 and I never stopped. So as of this interview, 34 years.
Ben: That’s a long time to study anything! You mentioned having to study other styles as well. Why was this and what other styles did you study?
WW: Meechgalanne wanted me to branch out and study other styles and with other teachers so that I knew what else was out there and how the styles differed. To him it was all about diversity rather than honing in on one specific style and never experiencing anything beyond it. He felt that to make one better at their preferred style they had to first study other styles of martial arts to understand their philosophies and principles. One day in my third year of training under him, he came to me and told me he would not teach me any more unless I went out and began studying at least two other styles. I could choose whichever I wanted, but he told me that is what was required of me. So I went out looking.
At first I found a Chinese Boxing school. It was rather a run of the mill kind of place and I did not last long. I found it very boring. I think I reached blue belt or something like that. After that I found a guy teaching Qi Gong and Tai Chi. I studied with him for maybe half a year or so. Then I began studying Muai Thai and for a while loved it because it was quite rough and I liked the competition. I was still studying Small Circles of 5 Animals Jujitsu at this point. I branched out again and began studying 18 Hand Lohan, a southern Chinese style. It was OK, but I did not get along with the teacher very well. Master Lee was excellent at the style but I did not mesh with how he taught it. Years later I studied Shao Lin Kung Fu and the styles within of Eagle Claw, Monkey, Crane and Tiger; the paths of Wu Mountain, the I-Chin Ching and Yang Style Tai Chi under Grandmaster The’.
In Junior High and High school I wrestled. I was not very good at the sport because I had been taking Jujitsu for years and so in situations where I could not capitalize with a wrestling technique I would resort to a grappling technique and well the coaches did not condone Jujitsu techniques in place of wrestling techniques. Needless to say I was disqualified a fair few time… but I wrestled nevertheless for five years just for the fun of it.
I really enjoyed the various styles of Kung Fu. I think my favorite martial styles next to Small Circles of 5 Animals Jujitsu are Eagle Claw and Muai Thai.
Ben: That’s quite the varied study! You really branched out didn’t you? I suppose it makes sense to study many others styles like you did in order to really get a feel for martial arts in general. I’d also suppose it makes practical sense to study other styles so you’d know how to fight other style techniques from your core style. Could you tell me what ranks you achieved?
WW: I can but they really do not mean much in my mind. Most of the schools that gave ranks were speed rank schools rather than the real traditional grading systems. Many of the mainstream style schools today give black belts out in a year and a half, which is quite crazy. I gained the rank of black in Muai Thai, Lohan and later Shao Lin Kung Fu. But like I said, I place no weight in those titles since the schools were geared to a fast pace of learning and advancement.
Ben: Am I correct in stating you were involved in street fighting as well for a time?
WW: Yes that is correct. I had a rough childhood in many aspects and was a very angry adolescent. Street fighting was my drug you might say. I used it as a release valve for that anger inside me. I certainly do not condone such activity today and strongly suggest learning other ways for resolving internal anger, but for me in the 80’s that was all I knew of dealing with it. I was close enough to Philadelphia to be exposed to street fights for money spanning from the city up to Lancaster and Reading and over to Harrisburg. People would even come out of the cities in New Jersey to fight in eastern Pennsylvania. It was a big fight region. I mean anyone who knows anything about Philly knows it is one of the fight capitols of the country. So yes I began fighting for money on the street when I was 13. It was an ugly business with a very ugly crowd.
It was my life. I trained and I fought and when I was not fighting I was in the woods learning about the wildness of the earth. I was always sore and my body was hard from fighting. I fought and trained so much I did not even bruise anymore. Your body gets used to it and it takes a huge beating to leave bruises after a while.
Ben: That sounds like brutal life and one I would not have survived in. I take it you received quite a few injuries during those fighting years?
WW: Oh yea. I had broken, cracked and chipped bones, dislocated joints, one or two concussions, sprains, bruised organs and whatnot. Yes it was very hard on the body.
Ben: That’s harsh! I’d think someone would have to be addicted to it in some form to continue enduring and going back for more. I watch these fights on TV and couldn’t imagine sighing up for that, training that hard and going in the ring and getting pummeled; even if by some miracle I won. That seems like a breed apart from my lifestyle. Though I must admit, I enjoy watching! Have you ever competed and when was the last time?
WW: Yes I have competed many times in my youth. There were always competitions happening during the 80’s in PA, MD, NJ, NY… I competed in a wide variety of martial arts events during those times. Most were a bit more brutal than many today since padding was not very popular yet. I competed in places like Binghamton, Allentown, Harrisburg, Lancaster, Baltimore, Trenton and Philadelphia. Most were open competitions, meaning any style could participate. I think the last one was in the mid 90’s or so. It was the Eagle Championships. I took first place in the masters down and ground division.
Ben: Did you ever consider competing in the UFC?
WW: Interestingly, yes. The very first Ultimate Fighting Championship took place in November of 1993 in Colorado. I happened to be living in Colorado at the time and was teaching Small Circles of 5 Animals Jujitsu. The UFC organization was trying to get the name and event out there as much as they could, so it was pretty unknown at the time. They had mailed out invitations and applications to potential fighters in the state. Perhaps other states as well, I am not sure. I received one such invite and application, I suppose because I was teaching. I was very interested.
They were asking for proof of training and styles, a short video of you training and a short video of you sparring. They may have asked for some other things as well, but I cannot remember, it was a while ago. I started getting my credentials together and lining things up to get training and sparring on video tape. A couple weeks later I read the fine print on once section of the application where they required you to have your own medical insurance and a very high level of it. For me that was the kicker. I had no medical coverage and could not afford it, especially at the level they required. I was distressed because no other competition I had ever been in required that and I wanted to compete. So I called them up and asked if there was a way around that and they told me they were sorry but there was not. All fighters had to come in with their own coverage. I contacted insurance companies to inquire, but because of my age, profession and whatnot they could not offer me insurance that I could afford.
So I gathered all the things the UFC required and sent it in saying I had no insurance but if they changed that requirement to let me know. They contacted me back saying they liked what I sent in and if I could get medical coverage in time they wanted to bring me in for the preliminary protocols. Unfortunately I could not get coverage and so was quite disappointed.
Ben: That sucks. It’s pretty cool that you got an invite though for the very first UFC. I can only imagine how bummed you were. I remember watching that first one and there was some huge sumo guy in there. I’d never get in that cage! But I don’t have the skill or attitude either. I’ve always found them great fun to watch though. They sure have changed since the first couple. Would you ever consider competing in the UFC now?
WW: Ha, nope. Even though it would be a lot of fun, my body cannot handle that level of endurance competition anymore. I struggle with ongoing diagnosed nerve pain from nerve dame in my spine and stage 1 adrenal exhaustion with extremely high levels of cortisol output. Sure I am good for the short run emergency situation on the street and things like that, but forget the ring anymore. I can teach and demonstrate, but my heavy competition days are over. But hey, I have the medical insurance today! Ha, ha.
Ben: I thought as much knowing a bit about your background, but I had wondered what your thoughts were on it. It makes perfect sense and I think it’s a wise choice not to compete anymore. I’m sure your body’s endured a terrible amount of injuries over the years. I’m guessing from what you say there are some that still plague you today?
WW: Yes my body has endured more than a fair share of abuse and it reminds me every day. Many broken bones and cracked ribs, sprains and dislocations; shoulders, ankles, wrists, fingers and toes, chest wall contusions, organ bruises and contusions, concussions, stab wounds, severed tendons, torn ligaments, nerve damage and the list goes on. Yes all those injuries over decades of fighting take a toll on the body that is hard to recover from. I work on healing on a daily basis but it is slow going and some of the damage may very well be irreversible without highly expensive and invasive surgical procedures that are not guaranteed to work. My doctors tell me that even though chronologically I am in my mid 40’s, my body is not and is much older. I never give up though or give in. I do my best to seek out better/more effective healing methods and continue the long process of healing and management.
I did ask my doctors a few years ago if they thought I might be able to compete again and they looked at me like I was nuts and said flat out – NO. Well it never hurts to ask, right…
Ben: I’m just surprised you’re still alive! Kudos! I’ve read some of your students say that even though they can see your pain, when you demonstrate a technique or series of techniques it’s like the pain disappears and you’re unhindered by it. Is this true and if so what’s your secret?
WW: Ha, well yes I am in pain most of the time. When I am demonstrating a technique I funnel all my attention and everything I am in the moment into the technique. The technique and I become an inseparable unit, a singular point of energy. In that state my focus does not recognize the pain, only the flow of energy. It is not really a secret but rather a trained state of being, a trained state of mind, body and spirit. If I could remain in such a state I might very well do so, but that kind of focus level is intense and takes a great deal of acquired internal assets to uphold, far too much to uphold indefinitely in the physical body. Sure I have heard of some great masters of old who could attain such a state of physical being permanently, but I have never met anyone who could. The physical body ages, it is inevitable. No matter how much one focuses on higher states of being and refined health of body, mind and spirit, everyone grows old and all physical bodies weaken and end.
Ben: Incredible White Wolf. I’ve read about the internal aspects of high level martial arts practitioners, but couldn’t ever really comprehend it all myself. I’m sure it’s because I’ve never practiced the arts, let alone the higher teachings found at advanced levels. I thought I read somewhere that one of your students received a burn from your energy. Am I right in that recollection?
WW: Oh yea, that. Over the years I have had a few students that I trusted a great deal and they had wished to feel a little of the advanced energy from internal energy direction. The most recent ones were in a specialized combat class last year. They had really wanted to get down and dirty in the class and target some hardcore study and application. Since I knew them both very well and they had been asking I decided to open some of my techniques into the internal energy realm. I was demonstrating a specific kind of grab on one of their wrists and explaining the control dynamics of proper grabbing. I went on to show how you could put someone on the ground just by grabbing the proper way. I funneled internal energy through my hand and into their wrist and they dropped like a rock. They were so impressed they asked me to do it again so they could focus on how it felt. I obliged and this time amped up the energy flow a little more and literally burned his skin off where the center of my palm made contact with it. Crazy enough, he loved it and said he wears the scar with pride. Too funny.
On another student that I trusted a great deal I was demonstrating another grab on the upper bicep. Again I showed the difference between normal grabbing, strength grabbing, tendon grabbing and then internal energy grabbing. During the internal energy grab, the energy flowing through my hand left a huge bruise on his arm and I was only lightly placing my hand on his skin. There was no compression force at all; it was just directed internal energy flow. He also walked around displaying his bruise with pride. Again, too funny. But I do not use this type of demonstration on students unless they are at a certain level.
Ben: Wild! I can see why but for those selected few I bet the experience it like none other. I mean, just to feel that kind of power flowing through someone must be incredible.
I want to back up a bit and talk a little more on your art if I may. I don’t want to ask question that you already have information about on your website though.
Meechgalanne passed on the Elder title to you in 92, is that correct?
WW: Yes, just before he died he passed on the highest rank of the art to me. That was in the early summer of 1992.
Ben: Since then have you kept the style the same or have you altered any of it?
WW: Good question. Whenever an art is passed on to someone the idea is not only that the new art holder will maintain the highest integrity of the style, but also continue its evolution. No art should remain stagnant. All martial systems need to evolve with deeper understanding. Though I have upheld the integrity of Small Circles of 5 Animals Jujitsu to the best of my ability, I have also furthered the arts growth over the last 24 years.
Ben: That must be quite a responsibility. How did you feel when Meechgalanne passed the art on to you?
WW: Well at first it was a great honor of course. But when he died the comfort zone of knowing he was around to assist was gone and the reality of it all set in. It was difficult for some time because thoughts of not being worthy thinking you really do not know how to proceed with it all takes hold. It took me quite a while to really come to terms with it all and begin to work on advancing the system through my own evolutions.
Ben: Did you study any other styles after you reached the Elder level of your art?
WW: Yes actually I did. Nobody is ever too high or too old to continue learning from others. Anyone who thinks otherwise has a raging ego that might need some attention. After I held the Elder rank I went on to start out as white belt in Shao Lin Kung Fu and worked my way up to black. I also study various aspects of Jwing-Ming’s work on qigong and Tai Chi. My main areas of continued martial study interest lies in the internal realms. I am no longer very interested in studying the hard core external aspects of martial arts. I have more than enough years of study and practical application experience with that. Even though I also have many years of internal martial arts practice and practical application experience, it is an area that can always be advanced within oneself. After all, I only have a few decades of internal martial arts practice, and in this area of the arts that is a drop in the bucket.
Ben: I would assume that the internal study would assist your healing path far more powerfully than external system studies would. Am I correct in that assumption?
WW: Absolutely. The external aspects are great for strength and speed, flexibility, endurance and overall fitness. However, without the internal aspects the body will eventually breakdown from the external focuses. The internal studies are the real foundation of the martial arts because it works to build the core of the life-force, cultivate the foundation energy of the body so the body can attain very high levels of internal performance throughout old age. The external martial practitioner will weaken as they age and be unable to successfully access and utilize the depths of their energy because it will have been depleted. The practitioner who focuses on developing the internal power through martial study will be able to call upon that energy intensity and flow for health and even defense in old age. This is one major reason all the advanced teachings of Small Circles of 5 Animals Jujitsu are internally oriented as opposed to MMA cockfighting competition type focuses.
Ben: That makes perfect sense, thank you for explaining. Do you know if it’s hard to find high level internal style teachers today? I mean it seems the external styles are everywhere.
WW: Yes you can find them, but you need to look in a different way than when you are seeking an externally focused art. Sure many arts claim they teach internal philosophies, but when it really comes down to it you will find that most that claim that do not actually have the quality teachings required for such advanced study. So you need to seek out the internal style teachers separately. I mean if you are young and wish to work your way up through an external style to perhaps gain the level to where the depths of internal work will be taught to you, go for it. However, if you are in your 30’s or older I suggest going directly to internal masters. I am quite positive the only reason I am still alive today is because of all the internal study I had throughout the years.
Ben: I guess the ego is drawn to the flashy external styles and competition?
WW: Most external styles are very outwardly dynamic and showy, sure. Yes the ego and power drive of youth seeks competitive styles and there is nothing wrong with any of it. It all has a place. Internal arts are slower. There are no shortcuts and you cannot pretend. You either have it or you do not. It takes many, many long slow years of practice to really feel the benefits of internal martial study and this takes extreme dedication and patience, many times far more than the youth of today possess.
Ben: And you had some pretty elite combat training through the government as well.
WW: Yes I had advanced training in things like Lethal Defense, Offensive Hand-to-Hand Combat, Weapons Disarmament, Offensive Defense, Close Quarters Combat, Edged Weapons, Ground Combat, Improvised Weapons, Internal Energy Sustainment, Psychological Combat Preparation and other focused along those lines, but it is an area I have spoken about so many times before, I do not really feel like rehashing it all again here.
Ben: I understand. Not a problem but thanks for at least laying out a few of these specialties for us.
Ben: I don’t want to drag this on too long here, especially since it’s a written interview. I want to wrap up with a couple questions on your classes. I see you have a Survival Combat Camp scheduled for July of this year, 2016. Is this open to anyone?
WW: Yes I have a 5 day Survival Combat Camp planned for July 22-26, 2016. Anyone is welcome to sign up and join in on the camp. It will be an intensive camp with long hours of hard training, so that is certainly something to keep in mind for those interested.
Ben: Good to know. How about other classes?
WW: This year I have stepped back a bit from doing a lot of teaching while I work to stabilize my cortisol production and work to strengthen my adrenals. Both are very slow processes that take a great deal of time and patience. So at this time I will host specialized martial classes here and there throughout the year with interest. Meaning if a small group of people are interested in learning in a specific area within my expertise for a weekend, a week or for longer periods I will entertain the request and work on logistics with them.
Ben: That just makes good sense White Wolf and I think anyone who would be lucky enough to train with you would understand just how lucky they are. I find there aren’t a great deal of high quality instructors around, especially ones with the amount of hardcore experience you’ve lived, and in my opinion an instructor who’s life depended upon their skill can tap into and understand the reality of the techniques so much better than someone who just learned it from a teacher and maybe used it in sparring or a controlled competition.
OK, let’s wrap this up for now. Thank you so much White Wolf for taking the time and agreeing to this interview. It was a great honor and I think we opened some really nice information. Hopefully readers will get something out of it. It’s always surprised me with how many people have interviewed you through the years that none of them focused on your martial arts experience. Thanks a million White Wolf!
WW: Thank you Ben for the interest and getting this together. I wish you the best.
~ Interview conducted by Ben, an Element Mountain student and owner of Bwebsecure. ~
